When did it become okay to bend or break the rules?

[deepdiverbob]

I have been reading a lot of posts on here, where people admit to making blind jumps. I have also heard in conversations where people are willing to push past their thirds, because the flow coming out is strong enough to bring them out still with their remaining third intact. I understand that these are judgment, and personal decisions. I am not knocking anyone for making these choices, but at what point do we feel we have evolved enough to bypass the very basic rules everyone one of us was taught in cave class? I have some people respond to other posts like this by saying its my choice, if I die, I knew the consequences, etc. I do not agree with that. I am willing to bet that the men and women that are forced to do a search and recovery had better things to do that day. I'm sure that is a call the local police department doesn't want to have to make. Taking it even a step further, its not fair to the remaining cave divers that might have to suffer through another cave system being shut down because of these rule violations.

I am not sure what kind of responses I am going to get from this, if any, however, its just something that has been bothering me. Again, I am not knocking anyone for doing what they do, I guess I am just trying to understand the thought process.

[aainslie]

Don't worry, buddy. Most people are with you.

Which is sad. Why is it that cave diving is so rule bound?

I really think that Sheck would be shocked at our lack of willingness to THINK if he were here today. He and other divers came up with those rules by thinking. Why the hell did it have to stop once they'd written them down?

Reminds me of a really cool book for those of you (Bob?) who enjoy reading: Will Self's The Book of Dave:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...huc__sim_01_01

[Sludge]

Your question is fair enough.

The answer is when we became adults. We can follow or break rules as we see fit. I choose to follow most, but not all. A couple of examples:

When scootering Jackson Blue I don't run a primary reel. The flow is such that, even in zero vis, the cave will spit you out from the beginning of the main line.

In Devil's, I go in the Ear and out the Eye. On almost all days the conditions are such that an exit without a line is a non-issue. Not to mention the dozen lines that are clogging up the entrances.

During one dive at Little River, we went in with 3600, turned when my buddy hit 2400, and when we exited he had 2100. That's the day we decided that diving extremely high flow systems, we would dive the Rule of 40% instead of 33%. So the next dive there we entered at 3600, turned at 2150, and exited with over 1700.

When you choose to bend a rule, however, you have to be prepared to live with your decision.

[chimie007]

The problem with the rules is that they are made to be simplistic and universal and the caves are not simplistic nor universal. Every single cave is different. When you start cave diving, you know nothing so you apply all rules to the letter. As you get more experience, you see that some of the rules can be applied differently depending on the circumstances. Sometimes it adds safety sometimes it reduces it.

I see plenty of new cave divers going full 1/3 in no flow system. While they have been told to be conservative during training, they simply follow the rule as it's named: "Rule of 1/3". Andrew brought up some good discussion a while back. While his proposed method was seen as "breaking" 1/3, it would actually reserve more gas in low flow system than the rule of 1/3 while reducing the need for gas in high flow system.

We all have different views on what can be modified. I don't personally break 1/3 even in high flow. I might recalculate closer to the exit but I don't "cheat" at max penetration. I rarely put a primary at Ginnie and never put a jump at Hill 400 if I'm scootering for example. On the other hand, I put jumps going from white line to white line, any new places or any silty/small place.

One thing to be said is that new divers should follow the rules until they have gained sufficient experience in a particular cave to make a good judgment.

[Attchoum]

cave are different and you can ajusted yourself.

I dive mexican cave, never dive florida. the average deep is around 17 feets for most of my cave dive. I dont have a backup computer and I still feel safe.

depending of the cave configuration and the snorkel people around I sometime leave my primary reel in my car.

But there is no flow in our cave so I always take rule of 1/3 or rule of 1/4.

you can ajuste yourself in a way that it still safe for you.

I think no one seek to die

Etienne

[LCF]

This accident has really gotten to me for some reason, and as a result of thinking about it, I posted the question on another board, "Rational risk assessment or complacency -- How do you know?" I think in all diving, as we gain experience, we begin to see where it is actually pretty reasonable to bend or break the "rules" -- for example, doing a simple reef dive with champagne bubbles, or doing a dive at a really well known site without a gauge because you forgot yours. In cave diving, that might be not putting in a primary in a place like JB, because you know it really well and it's impossible to silt out and the flow would take you out if you let go of everything, anyway. But at some point, people make those kinds of decisions and are wrong -- dead wrong, sometimes. And I'm sure they didn't go into the cave that day saying, "Well, I feel like taking some ridiculous risks and getting myself killed today." They thought what they did was reasonable, and it turned out it wasn't. And I don't know how you know when you have crossed that line -- so for me, I think I'll stick to the rules for a long time, even when their consequences are silly.

[FW]

When you choose to bend a rule, however, you have to be prepared to live with your decision.

Or even die with your decision.

[WJH]

I have made just a few dives where the rules were not followed to the letter. In every case, the situation and conditions were thoroughly discussed and agreed on in advance . . . because:
When we read about fatalities (far too often for my taste) they nearly always have a primary "rule" violation that either caused or complicated the situation!

And, as Bob made reference to, I not only don't want to die cave diving, I would hate for my death to cause:
Dangerous reputation for cave diving, need for a recovery mission, closure of a system, and most of all . . . indescribable grief for my buddy, dive friends, and family!

WJH

[aainslie]

Here is why rules should be questioned and changed.

Almost EVERY diver I know, after a few dives, starts bending the rules. Including most of the people chiming up right now saying how important it is to obey them.

Problem is, no one wants to talk about it. There are two reasons:

1) Fear of recrimination. FW (and others) sends me a couple of PM's about what a bad boy I am every time I start these types of discussions.

2) Paternalistic "I can do it but others aren't clever enough to". So all the experienced guys berak rules left right and centre and don't tell us about it.

The problem is, as a result, we all end up reinventing the rules for ourselves. Over and over again.

And I guarantee you, MANY experienced divers are doing really dumbassed things. Beause there's no "peer review", i.e. open discussion about which of their ideas are good, and which are bad.

So people die, as FW pointed out to me in his PM, because they break the rules.

But I contend, if we discussed this more, and made up our minds what the sensible ways are to go beyond the simplistic 5 and what's dumbassed idiocy that should be avoided, we'd all start to be better, safer divers.

No one will die from not putting a reel in at Ginnie. Ever. We all know that. Yet in a really complex system with 4 way intersections and jumps, a reel and a cookie may be insufficient.

Its just like my gas discussions. Thirds is stupidly conservative in Ginnie. And stupidly dangerous in Peacock and Mexico.

Simple rules don't work all that well. And bending them on a one-by-one basis will lead to a bunch of highly avoidable episodes of Darwinian adjustment to the gene pool.

I'd rather break this ridiculous complacency and get people a) thinking and b) talking.

__________________________________________________ _________

One last point (sorry to pick on you Steve!) - recently there was a thread where people were strongly advocating staying within the limits of your training. Steve Bogaerts was one of them. Are you kidding me???!!! Steve continually and brilliantly innovates... and by innovating, steps outside of his training. It's a classic example of very experienced people thinking that everyone should stick to the rules... except them, of course.

FW, let me ask you - that weird assed comtraption that you call a rebreather. Whose rules does that adhere to? Which training agency trained you on its usage? Which manufacturing company got agencies to certify that it was safe? Yours, none, none, buddy! And good on you for inventing it. But don't talk to me about "sticking to the rules" when you refuse to do so yourself.

Thank God for the Bogaerts, the Hemphills, the Wilsons and all the otehrs that break the rules all the time... and improve our diving for it. But I really get pissed when the same group tell me that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

(This isn't aimed at Brett btw. I don't think he even knows who I am He's just a really clever "rule breaker")

[rjack]

First (and only) time I did JB we didn't run a reel at the suggestion of my local buddy. Yeah it would have been impossible to not find our way out. But it just didn't feel like cave diving without it. He was a bit shocked afterwards when I said I would have run one. As far as I'm concerned running the reel is part of the dive.