Manatee Springs fatality?

I received some secondhand information today from a recreational diver who is involved in the local search and rescue team. Said there was a fatality at Manatee potentially a cave diver female with husband. Attempting to exit at the main head spring husband made it out female was trapped in a major restriction at exit and did not make it out. Body has yet to be recovered according to my source.

Horrible news to get just before the holiday. I'd be curious if there are any official details at this time.

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That sucks. Out of curiosity, wasn't there a collapse or something that led to the main head spring not being a viable exit option? I believe I remember reading that and if this is true it would seem to coordinate

Sadly, not fake news


https://www.wcjb.com/content/news/Di...565426851.html

I don't believe so however I cannot confirm. It's been a couple years since I've exited the head spring. I do recall you need to pretty much line yourself up prior to getting shot out of the hole or I could see how somebody might get pins and if you are not strong enough to get yourself out you can find yourself trapped fairly easily.

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Originally Posted by IowaCaveDiver

I don't believe so however I cannot confirm. It's been a couple years since I've exited the head spring. I do recall you need to pretty much line yourself up prior to getting shot out of the hole or I could see how somebody might get pins and if you are not strong enough to get yourself out you can find yourself trapped fairly easily.

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I've never exited via the headspring, so don't know. I thought I read something about changes at the downstream exit of the head spring but it's very possible I'm remembering incorrectly.

The Traverse from Catfish Hotel towards the mainspring is fairly short and could easily be perceived as a low-risk easy dive. I guess this goes to show we should never underestimate the hazards of even the simplest Dives.

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It appears that very few divers are aware of the "so called" chimney exit at the headspring. If the normal exit was blocked or restricted, this would certainly be an option. Ironically, this exit is only less than five feet away from where divers normally swim out. The chimney is, for the most part, solid rock and by that I mean no breakdown as such. In my opinion, the only thing that would block this exit is debris ( limbs and such ) that the current would push into the crack. Flow in here is off the scale. I've never done an exit for that reason, but I have entered here on numerous occasion.

Exiting from the head spring is quite a ride. Even being totally negative if you don't grab on to rocks to slow your exit you will be shot out of there like a cannon ball.

Dang, head spring has a lot of places to get stuck and high velocity water. So sad.

What a horrifying experience for this poor diver. Being able to see the light of day and not be able to get to it.

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Maybe it was a temporary blockage by debris I read about. I know I?ve never considered exiting via the headspring because I?ve been told the flow is savage and swimming back upstream would be exceptionally difficult


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I seem to remember seeing a notification within the past year or so that some rocks had shifted, making the exit at the headspring more restricted. I exited there a couple of times, most recently about 5 years ago. I didn't plan to do it again.

Condolences to friends and family. Very sad.

Mike

https://www.facebook.com/CaveDiveSma...type=3&theater

This is where I remember seeing it, from Harry Averill. Hopefully those not on FB can follow the link.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

https://www.facebook.com/CaveDiveSma...type=3&theater

This is where I remember seeing it, from Harry Averill. Hopefully those not on FB can follow the link.

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That is consistent with my memory. It may have even been that post


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Originally Posted by rddvet

That sucks. Out of curiosity, wasn't there a collapse or something that led to the main head spring not being a viable exit option? I believe I remember reading that and if this is true it would seem to coordinate

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I remember that announcement.


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Just heard where they were able to remove the victim.

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Sorry to hear. Special thanks to all involved in the recovery.

Name was released
https://mycbs4.com/news/local/diver-...anatee-springs


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Originally Posted by Diverlee

Name was released
https://mycbs4.com/news/local/diver-...anatee-springs


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I am guessing DEMA attendees?

How would one avoid dying like this?

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

How would one avoid dying like this?

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Sign advising not to go downstream, someone clearing the rock(s) from the breakdown a year or 2 ago

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Originally Posted by rddvet

e I?ve been told the flow is savage and swimming back upstream would be exceptionally difficult

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I did it with no mask on for my last full cave certification dive. The swim back is about the same as the return for the P3 traverse.

I haven't exited the head spring for several years but you would hug the tree that fell into the hole and slide up it until you were clear of the cave and ready to get shot out

Thanks to the recovery team. What a terrible accident.
Barbara

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

How would one avoid dying like this?

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Verifying your exit

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Originally Posted by patpicos

Sign advising not to go downstream, someone clearing the rock(s) from the breakdown a year or 2 ago

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Maybe at check in divers could be warned also.
So sad. Must have been awful for her and her buddies.


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I still am not understanding what happened. Did she take a wrong turn?

CaveSloth, please don't continue to be a troll.

Thanks to the recovery team.

Don't think so. I think she got keyholed by the flow and stuck.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

Verifying your exit

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Excellent point. I think most people that plan to exit via the headspring do so from catfish without ever checking the exit. At a high flow tidally influenced system like mamatee it can obviously become an obstructed exit after a flood.


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Originally Posted by grantctobin

CaveSloth, please don't continue to be a troll.

Thanks to the recovery team.

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Dont think he?s trolling.


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I want to understand exactly what happened and how one could avoid this. Accident analysis. Me and my girlfriend are shook by this incident and want to learn from it. Looking at the cave maps it does look like an easy traverse from Catfish to the head spring. Can someone draw a more accurate map showing the danger and how to avoid it? Did she stray from the guideline? Is there no line?

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Dont think he?s trolling.

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Thank you. I’ve learned to just ignore people who are mean for no reason.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I still am not understanding what happened. Did she take a wrong turn?

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Most of the maps and video of this section of Manatee are out date, since the partial collapse that happened ~two years ago.

Prior to that, traversing from catfish to the mainspring was relatively easy. The main challenge being the heavy flow. I had swam this traverse several times. Dump all your BC gas, and you become a semi guided torpedo going out with the flow.

I have heard mixed reports about the state of the ?new? restriction and have not made any attempt to dive there since the collapse.

Something posted recently suggested the recent entrapment occurred in the ?chimney? (?). I was aware of an alternate exit, but have never noticed it personally.

As far as being worried about this from the perspective of a newish cave diver... I think it?s safe to underscore two basic ?rules?. 1) do plenty of research and make sure you are up to speed on current cave conditions. And 2) never rely on an safe exit that you have not personally verified.

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Originally Posted by MarkR

Most of the maps and video of this section of Manatee are out date, since the partial collapse that happened ~two years ago.

Prior to that, traversing from catfish to the mainspring was relatively easy. The main challenge being the heavy flow. I had swam this traverse several times. Dump all your BC gas, and you become a semi guided torpedo going out with the flow.

I have heard mixed reports about the state of the ?new? restriction and have not made any attempt to dive there since the collapse.

Something posted recently suggested the recent entrapment occurred in the ?chimney? (?). I was aware of an alternate exit, but have never noticed it personally.

As far as being worried about this from the perspective of a newish cave diver... I think it?s safe to underscore two basic ?rules?. 1) do plenty of research and make sure you are up to speed on current cave conditions. And 2) never rely on an safe exit that you have not personally verified.

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Thank you. So this "chimney" is an alternate exit? A separate spring or an alternate route into the main spring, kinda like there is a very short alternate entrance / exit at Madison Blue? Was the chimney blocked? Or just really tight and she got wedged in it? Did she CHOOSE to take this alternate exit or did the current push her into it? Is there a permanent guideline there and did she not stay close enough to it? Did she get separated too much from her group?

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I want to understand exactly what happened and how one could avoid this. Accident analysis. Me and my girlfriend are shook by this incident and want to learn from it. Looking at the cave maps it does look like an easy traverse from Catfish to the head spring. Can someone draw a more accurate map showing the danger and how to avoid it? Did she stray from the guideline? Is there no line?

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What Mark said, plus, get a local guide if you're unsure as to what you're getting yourself into. Relying on a map is a pretty bad idea in general.
Also, don't swim into any siphons unless you're really know what you're doing.
I find the siphon in Catfish Hotel pretty scary.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

Or just really tight and she got wedged in it? Did she CHOOSE to take this alternate exit or did the current push her into it? Is there a permanent guideline there and did she not stay close enough to it? Did she get separated too much from her group?

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Sadly, most of us will never get those answers. If you're close with the recovery team or someone that is, you may get the answer. Otherwise it's unlikely most people will know.

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Originally Posted by bent

What Mark said, plus, get a local guide if you're unsure as to what you're getting yourself into. Relying on a map is a pretty bad idea in general.
Also, don't swim into any siphons unless you're really know what you're doing.
I find the siphon in Catfish Hotel pretty scary.

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I have heard some folks say you might get unintentionally sucked into it if you get too close! Are there signs in catfish hotel saying to stay away?

Am I understanding correctly that the siphon at catfish hotel is the traverse to the head spring? Is it an easy traverse or not? Obviously if someone died it is not. But still trying to understand exactly how she got off course or if she meant to take the "chimney" and it was just tighter than she expected and she got stuck and wedged by current and couldn't turn around?

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Sadly, most of us will never get those answers. If you're close with the recovery team or someone that is, you may get the answer. Otherwise it's unlikely most people will know.

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I feel like that is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I have heard some folks say you might get unintentionally sucked into it if you get too close! Are there signs in catfish hotel saying to stay away?

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I don't know about getting sucked in. Just don't swin into any siphons.

And about the signs: What are people supposed to do? Have a 100 signs in every cave? It's not Disney Land where they tell you where you can go or not. You need to be able to make your own decisions. Follow what you learned in class and if you're unsure get a guide or get more training. IMHO, demanding more signs or rules or whatever leads to cave being closed because some land owners don't what to deal with the hassle. Just go by what you've been told in training.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I feel like that is unacceptable.

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Complete detailed recovery logs stopped being released years ago. It's just the way it is unfortunately. More can be taught by having the details but in today's litigious society and all of the internet hooplah, it's understandable.

Fast moving water is so dangerous, some of the scariest times I've ever had were running class iv rapids in my kayak.
Combine fast water with cave diving and you have serious environmental challenges, I've also had some interesting times in the local river siphon.

There is no reason for more details, fast moving water in a cave can kill you in a variety of ways.

Hopefully they knew how dangerous it was going into it, and just made a mistake. So sad.

I think this thread illustrates a very common problem causing breakdowns in communication. You see it in all walks of life in which people talk about topics in a group that has different levels of expertise. The people who really know the topic well talk among themselves using a form of shorthand and a confidence that they don't need to include details because other people with a similar knowledge base will understand. You see it most commonly in discussions about incidents that include rebreathers, with people composing sentences full of acronyms that are absolutely meaningless to non-rebreather divers.

In this thread, people who know that cave system well started talking about it as if everyone else participating in the thread has the same knowledge base, and their discussion amongst themselves is pretty meaningless to someone who has never dived the system. Speaking as one who has never been in that system myself, I am not clear on what happened. This is frustrating to me, because I assume that I will soon be trying to write a full report on it on behalf of the NSS. I will be writing that report knowing that 90% of my audience will not even be divers, and I will need to include those details so they can understand.

It would be very helpful if someone who knows the system well would write a clear description with details that will make the event clear for people who have never been there.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I feel like that is unacceptable.

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Welcome to cave diving.

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

I think this thread illustrates a very common problem causing breakdowns in communication. You see it in all walks of life in which people talk about topics in a group that has different levels of expertise. The people who really know the topic well talk among themselves using a form of shorthand and a confidence that they don't need to include details because other people with a similar knowledge base will understand. You see it most commonly in discussions about incidents that include rebreathers, with people composing sentences full of acronyms that are absolutely meaningless to non-rebreather divers.

In this thread, people who know that cave system well started talking about it as if everyone else participating in the thread has the same knowledge base, and their discussion amongst themselves is pretty meaningless to someone who has never dived the system. Speaking as one who has never been in that system myself, I am not clear on what happened. This is frustrating to me, because I assume that I will soon be trying to write a full report on it on behalf of the NSS. I will be writing that report knowing that 90% of my audience will not even be divers, and I will need to include those details so they can understand.

It would be very helpful if someone who knows the system well would write a clear description with details that will make the event clear for people who have never been there.

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If you have to write a report on it for the NSS wouldnt the easiest thing to do is reach out to the iucrr team? Problem solved.



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As someone who has not dived this site what it sounds to me like at this point is that there were 2 ways out of the cave, a main way and an alternate way. In times past the alternate way would have been fine, but there was a cave-in a couple years ago that has made it into a gnarly restriction. The restriction combined with the high flow caused her to be wedged and pinned in a way that she could not free herself, and no one else had the gas to go back and help her, or they were afraid of being wedged themselves. Why she went that way or if she intended to or simply wasn't paying attention or worst case was forced that way by the current is still unknown and no one has suggested anything regarding how or why she went the alternate way.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

If you have to write a report on it for the NSS wouldnt the easiest thing to do is reach out to the iucrr team? Problem solved.

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Or maybe someone who actually knows anything about this should write the report? Maybe we can find someone who's more qualified to write it... like someone who's been at Manatee at least once? Anyone?

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Originally Posted by JohnAd

...discussions about incidents that include rebreathers, with people composing sentences full of acronyms that are absolutely meaningless to non-rebreather divers.

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So what? If people are actually interested they can look up stuff in no-time. No need to dumb down things and spoon feed people. BTW: you didn't explain what NSS is. This acronym is meaningless to non-cave divers.

CaveSloth, you keep asking the same thing over and over again. How would people know what happened exactly? There maybe a report or not at some point in the future. 'Why she went that way?' How would anyone know that? Do you expect someone to tell you exactly what happened and what they were thinking even though they weren't there?

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Complete detailed recovery logs stopped being released years ago. It's just the way it is unfortunately. More can be taught by having the details but in today's litigious society and all of the internet hooplah, it's understandable.

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More has been released on this incident that most from the last 4 years. The difference with this situation, is that it appears to be an accident where the answer is not the typical ?lack of training?, ?CCRs are deathtraps?, or ?Poor Gas Management? that is what seems to be normally to blame.

@CaveSloth, just accept that you might never know exactly what happened here. Acceptable or not... I do believe the members of the IUCCR are committed to releasing information that could prevent a future accident like this. They are just very reluctant to pass on details, which I totally understand. I sort of feel like the more people demand to know ?the whole story?.. the less some people are likely to want to discuss it.

That's cool. Sorry if I am being too demanding or pushy. I am thankful for the information we already have and especially for those in this forum who have shared their first hand knowledge of the layout of that section of the cave, chimney, impact of recent cave-in etc...

A terrible event to be certain. My thoughts go out to everyone involved.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

I want to understand exactly what happened and how one could avoid this. Accident analysis. Me and my girlfriend are shook by this incident and want to learn from it. Looking at the cave maps it does look like an easy traverse from Catfish to the head spring. Can someone draw a more accurate map showing the danger and how to avoid it? Did she stray from the guideline? Is there no line?

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Start at the beginning of the post. Read the 2 or 3 articles. Then you should understand


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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

As someone who has not dived this site what it sounds to me like at this point is that there were 2 ways out of the cave, a main way and an alternate way. In times past the alternate way would have been fine, but there was a cave-in a couple years ago that has made it into a gnarly restriction. The restriction combined with the high flow caused her to be wedged and pinned in a way that she could not free herself, and no one else had the gas to go back and help her, or they were afraid of being wedged themselves. Why she went that way or if she intended to or simply wasn't paying attention or worst case was forced that way by the current is still unknown and no one has suggested anything regarding how or why she went the alternate way.

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I think you got it!


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I ruled out the Catfish-Manatee traverse a couple years back after failed attempts to verify the Manatee exit (too strong of flow to penetrate against). Unverified traverses are a no-no in my book. For the same reason I avoid going into syphons like Lightning spring which have potential to turn into a one way trip. Call me wimpy tourist diver - I am fine with it.

It sounds like the group found a way to exit less the female. I wonder how she ended up elsewhere pinned. Must have been a hell of a recovery effort.

(I think I have met a group from china at Peacock matching the description here. They seemed well equipped and knowing what they are doing. The only unusual thing about them was that the males couldn't wait to drop their cylinders before lighting cigarettes. Never understood mixing up heavy smoking and diving. Sad to hear they lost a diver.)

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Sadly, most of us will never get those answers. If you're close with the recovery team or someone that is, you may get the answer. Otherwise it's unlikely most people will know. (snip) Complete detailed recovery logs stopped being released years ago. It's just the way it is unfortunately. More can be taught by having the details but in today's litigious society and all of the internet hooplah, it's understandable.

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I think the community is making excellent progress with the Eagle Nest and Kalimba reports. Sheck had the right idea that accident analysis reports should be made public for the sake of evolving the community's risk comprehension and management approach. The aviation community has been doing it for long long time with excellent results. Just check out the NTSB web site containing full details on every single aviation incident since 1962 (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Month.aspx)

I don't comprehend the regressive mentality of the IUCRR of the last few years. Liability and speculation control are just some sort of random excuses that make zero sense. There is no excise for holding back safety related information that could prevent future occurrences of the same accident and letting gossip run wild. Learn from the best practices of the longer established safety-oriented technical communities out there. Anyone who feels otherwise should incinerate their copy of the Blueprint for Survival and hang up their fins.

In february 2017 I dove Manatee and we tried to get in from Manatee springs, that was not possible. Then we went to Catfish and dove to Friedman. That was possible, but still heavy current. A few days later a local took us to Friedman were we did a circuit and then let is flow to Catfish and then out to Manatee springs. You need to do it one by one and after you exit, grab the tree, throw yourself over the tree or you will miss your decostop. Yes it was a great dive, but I would never do this exit without a local. The same person now says you cannot do the exit anymore. So I would not try to do it nowadays.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

How would one avoid dying like this?

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Hey CaveSloth, I just came across a good example of what not to do if you dont wanna die in some dead end. Just don't do what germie does and if you have a cave instructor who tells you to do a blind traverse... run.

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Originally Posted by Germie

... we tried to get in from Manatee springs, that was not possible. Then we went to Catfish and dove to Friedman. That was possible, but still heavy current. A few days later a local took us to Friedman were we did a circuit and then let is flow to Catfish and then out to Manatee springs.

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Originally Posted by CaveSloth

As someone who has not dived this site what it sounds to me like at this point is that there were 2 ways out of the cave, a main way and an alternate way. In times past the alternate way would have been fine, but there was a cave-in a couple years ago that has made it into a gnarly restriction. The restriction combined with the high flow caused her to be wedged and pinned in a way that she could not free herself, and no one else had the gas to go back and help her, or they were afraid of being wedged themselves. Why she went that way or if she intended to or simply wasn't paying attention or worst case was forced that way by the current is still unknown and no one has suggested anything regarding how or why she went the alternate way.

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I understand wanting answers because with every accident questions like this arise with newer people especially. Cave diving has its hazards which can be unforgiving, and when an accident happens people want answers as form of the defense mechanism rationalization, to basically validate their doing the sport, because this won't happen to me because..... Right now the best we have is speculation because the answers may or may not come out, and if we are lucky the dive buddies will fill in the blanks of missing information. Fast moving water has its hazards, and performing exits from the head spring at Manatee has always been very difficult. Advice going forward- get a mentor, go slow, ask questions of people familiar with systems, be conservative 1/3rds is overly liberal, stay within your limits to name a few.

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Originally Posted by Germie

Yes it was a great dive, but I would never do this exit without a local.

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No offense there are no locals with magic powers to ensure someone's safety. Once you are in the flow you are at the mercy of the water, and there is no verbal communication from a local that can help you with the process. The best a local can do is give you surface instruction, and if you get in trouble maybe/maybe not help you. If the conditions are real challenging there are 3 people that can help: me, myself and I.

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jessop

No offense there are no locals with magic powers to ensure someone's safety. Once you are in the flow you are at the mercy of the water, and there is no verbal communication from a local that can help you with the process. The best a local can do is give you surface instruction, and if you get in trouble maybe/maybe not help you. If the conditions are real challenging there are 3 people that can help: me, myself and I.

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True, but there are sometimes places that are better a first time with someone who knows the site. When we did it, it was the 'old wide' opening. The person were we dove with now says also you cannot do it anymore. When we did it, you could go back to Catfish if you really wanted from the place I took the picture. But once in this exit you could not go back anymore.
This was a picture I took from the opening:
https://www.scubaboard.com/community...16-jpg.551841/
Now it seems to be just 1 man wide.
So it is not possible anymore. If you don't have the information that it is blocked now, this could be a risk, because on maps it looks like it is possible to do and on old videos you also can see people doing it. When we looked at the exit during a dive in Manatee itself you could see the tunnel inside. Where it widened again. I don't know how it looks like now, from Manatee you don't see the cave inside anymore?
The best to tell people not to do it anymore is to let them sign this rule when signing up for diving I think. Only go upstream from Catfish. And change maps to tell people the exit is now unsafe blocked or something.

Interesting, so according to an IANTD instructor you don't have to set up a traverse anymore? You just have to ask somebody whether it's ok? Is that what people being taught these days?
I was taught to verify an exit for myself and don't do any trust-me circuits and traverses.

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Originally Posted by bent

Interesting, so according to an IANTD instructor you don't have to set up a traverse anymore? You just have to ask somebody whether it's ok? Is that what people being taught these days?
I was taught to verify an exit for myself and don't do any trust-me circuits and traverses.

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Must you pick an accident thread to start sniping at people?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Must you pick an accident thread to start sniping at people?

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I think it's a valid question/comment. It seems to me that the reason for the accident was them doing a blind traverse. Now in this thread we have a cave instructor saying a blind traverse is not a big deal. IMHO, that's ridiculous. Sugarcoating it, doesn't make it better. Being fake nice to unsafe instructors doesn't make anything better either.

Words that are never mentioned are put in mouths to let people think that someone said it. I just talk about a dive we made more than 2.5 year ago when it was possible to do the exit. The dive is all history, cannot be done anymore. I talked to the person who took us there and he now states that since the collapse he doesn't do this exit anymore. It was 'quite' normal to do it that time. But now it is all history.

This topic is about an sad accident. We don't know the diveplan, but if the divers have looked at maps and have seen video's of the exit on Youtube and did not know that it is collapsed, and also have read that you start a dive in Catfish and can/could do the traverse to Manatee (that is written on several old sites), then it is sadly possible that they decided to try it. We had also read that you don't start in Manatee springs itself, but we wanted to take a look, also because of the 'lake' was pretty intersting becuase of turtles, fish, etc. And normally you prefer to start against the current. Then we went to Catfish, talked to some other divers, swam to Friedman against the current. Back at Catfish we did a carefull look at the downstream part to Manatee. And swam back to Catfish. I don't know how far we went in, but people told us then that you could swim back till the place I took the picture later. A few days later, diver who lives there invited us to start at Friedman, do the circuit, than go to Catfish and out at Manatee. Bad or wrong, it is not part of the accident. It is only a dive that WAS possible and was done by more people. And yes, videos and pictures about how it was can be found. So misinformation about the actual situation can be found. A lot of people think caves don't collapse.

I think the best discussion is about how to prevent people to try to do the exit at Manatee in future. In 2017 there was a rule not to start at Friedman as long as you didn't dive from Catfish to Friedman, so it would not be strange to tell people when you sign in that you cannot go downstream from Catfish. Another thing that can be done is a line with markings on it on the downstream side like you have in the Trou Madame in France. There is a sign on the line that 'blocks' the tunnel (not big) with 'DEAD' on it.

Hey guys, have a little respect, someone died. :smt086

Arguing online about how the Park should mark and/or notify divers about the headspring only points them to the simplest solution to prevent incidents...

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Arguing online about how the Park should mark and/or notify divers about the headspring only points them to the simplest solution to prevent incidents...

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Are you afraid that the site will be closed? The park already has some rules about diving (max amount of divers per day, only do Friedman if you have been from Catfish to Friedman, tell them when you leave). So is it wrong to tell new people not to exit Manatee then? Just a question as I haven't been there since february 2017.
And of course I hope the site will not be closed. And with some easy things you can make it safer I think and maybe this sad story did not happen. I really hope people won't be against cave diving there.

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Originally Posted by Jack Hammer

Hey guys, have a little respect, someone died. :smt086

Arguing online about how the Park should mark and/or notify divers about the headspring only points them to the simplest solution to prevent incidents...

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Though there's a little arguing going on, how the park should manage it is a valid point. As you will see from the start of the thread, I stated I was pretty sure there was a collapse or something that made the exit impassable. Multiple people hadn't heard that. All of my dive friends I asked hadn't heard that. I thought I'd read it here in a post, but in reality it was a fb post I had seen. That's a major change in a cave system. When pothole become an invalid emergency exit things were changed and posted here. I agree that getting the park involved is ideally the last resort because it brings more attention to cave diving than we'd like. Unfortunately, you're not going to stop people from doing blind traverses. I'd love to think this tragedy will fix that, but it won't. Maybe the park doesn't change rules now after 1 death, but who's to say they won't ban cave diving if another person dies in the same spot. I would much prefer the park have a notice to divers or some other way of making divers aware so this can be avoided as opposed to an eventual ban.


The divers I'm talking about that didn't know about the restricting of the exit are all local florida cave divers. So if they didn't know, how likely are infrequent vacation divers to know? Not likely.



No one should plan their exit in a siphon tunnel without knowing if the exit is viable. That's basic cave diving, but so is not doing blind jumps, and I have watched 2 local cave instructors do them in Ginnie. You're not going to suddenly cure people doing things the wrong way.

I can't imagine how horrific this is for the family, especially the husband. I hope they find a way to get through it as painlessly as is possible. Such a sad event :(

Does anyone know if all four of this group were trying to exit at the same time?

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Must you pick an accident thread to start sniping at people?

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Happy hour. Just don't snipe at anyone and then get a second and third accident thread for free.

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A sad event, condolences to the family.

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Originally Posted by bent

Interesting, so according to an IANTD instructor you don't have to set up a traverse anymore? You just have to ask somebody whether it's ok? Is that what people being taught these days?
I was taught to verify an exit for myself and don't do any trust-me circuits and traverses.

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That's how I was taught within IANTD

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Originally Posted by Germie

Words that are never mentioned are put in mouths to let people think that someone said it. I just talk about a dive we made more than 2.5 year ago when it was possible to do the exit. The dive is all history, cannot be done anymore. I talked to the person who took us there and he now states that since the collapse he doesn't do this exit anymore. It was 'quite' normal to do it that time.

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I guess that was his point though.. You state was quite normal to do it..
While it should not be normal at all to do it without having the exit verified yourself which according your description earlier of the dive you did in 2017 it sounds like you had not verified yourself. You followed a local guide and if you did so without having verified the exit this makes it a trust me dive..

Not wanting to snipe or so.. just trying to have you reconsider what you had stated as you claim these are words put in your mouth.

This is a sad accident and maybe if contibued any discussion about trust me aspects in regards to exiting syphons should be split off..

In regards to accident analysis there might be correlations though. If the team had not verified the exit and was doing the traverse this fact would be a contributing factor.. Would be good to get some insight into the dive plan the team had..