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Maybe I missed it, but my impression is that we've had two occasions in just a few months, where divers have found themselves in the "wrong" cave at JB. In both cases, divers would have perished were it not for heroic efforts by Edd and friends.
What is the problem with the "wrong" cave, and how is that problem solved?
the last one was Twin. Unfortunately we lose too many people at Ginnie. It's a matter of how many and possibly how deceptively easy it is to live while diving these caves.
I have wondered the same thing, I've come to the conclusion that the Mill Pond's diver traffic is a whole lot more than it has ever been, even a year ago, and maybe it has become somewhat of a destination for somewhat less experienced, and possibly less current divers from up North. I am NOT saying that Northern divers are less experienced, careful or anything except maybe due to the fact that they may not have caves in their back yard and can dive after work, they may be less current.
So, I think many more divers are diving the Mill Pond now, and possibly less experienced / current divers
Whatever the reason, I hope it's over
On edit, on the wrong cave thing remove the markers for that jump? I'm pretty sure that in both instances they thought they were going to do the horseshoe circuit, and of course that's not where they were.
I was talking about the two students that Edd rescued previously at JB. Backmount divers that ended up in a sidemount cave and couldn't get out.Quote:
Originally Posted by whodunit68
I understood that we had two incidents in the same section of cave. I agree with your line of thinking, but I'm wondering if there is a problem with the section that could be addressed, with the line, or some type of pre-dive briefing to make infrequent visitors aware of a potential issue that's specific to the section in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Forgive my potential ignorance on the subject, just a cavern diver. I may be misunderstanding something here.
right sorry....point taken, pre-dive briefings only work for people who show up to the place to get them. Maybe another sign like at Rocky Horror in Madison for tougher places. There's a reason the RH sign is there. Or another Grim Reaper could potentially say hey, dangerous cave here (or cave monster lurking), watch out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benderr
Maybe a way to start marking the jumps would help. Like at Peacock the is a slate telling you about the Emer exit. Why not have something attached at the jumps on the mainline telling you what it is. I know im a newbie here in the cave world, but I often find myself wondering whats what when swimming by jumps.
Brandon, you're going to open up an ugly can of worms my friend. We will soon have people responding yelling and screaming about lighted caves with signs like on the freeway (including speed limits).
LOl...I didnt mean the whole cave, I mean just at the major problem sites.....Maybe neon lights will work...
I was just looking out for ppl that scooter at moch1, some narrowing cave signs, 90 degree turns, slippery rocks mite help.....JOKING
I think in this case putting it on the map may be better than leaving it off. The passage can end (on the map) with a little "sm" notation, like many other maps. People will know there is a SM passage in the area, and hopefully be a bit more aware of the possibility of being in the wrong section.
Maybe the root of the problem here is training one to understand what kind of cave is in their capabilities and showing them how to properly progress within their "bubble" of experience and/or training?
Thats the point. Every cave I have dove, I have contacted someone that I know has dove the system and has experience and I ask them about the cave and if it is something I can do. That way I know it if its ok or something out of my limits. Poor Steve is prob tired of me asking him about caves and stuff.
Which may be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
My concern us that you have a particular area that has had two known problems in a single dive season, both of which would have resulted in fatalities had it not been for extraordinary circumstances. Without seeing the area with my own eyes, it's impossible for me to form any real opinion, but could it be that this particular area is deceptively more challenging than it appears? Especially when viewed through the mask of less experienced divers?
never buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpcfire1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I think that this is a very good suggestion, but suspect the marianna regulars would likely disagree. I haven't been very far in JB, but during my sm class Edd told us that there are quite a few jumps in JB that aren't on any map. I kept quiet at the time as to not sound like the dumb new guy, but in my head I thought wouldn't mapping those jumps make it much easier not to go down the wrong tunnel. I've been lucky at the caves I dive to either easily figure out what jump is what or have had more experienced frineds give me a heads up or confirm my assumptions. I would think by having known jumps marked on the map there would be less confusion when someone new to a site dives it and doesn't have someone with more experience to clarify.
The flip side of the coin I know is the cost of producing a new map as well as some feel that marking all the jumps, esp. sm jumps will just stimulate some people to take tunnels they shouldn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benderr
Nope. It is clear when diving it what kind of skill is required. As it should be to any properly trained cave diver. Cave instructors are tasked with making sure that students can properly view/travel a passage and make the decision to turn prior to being in a passage that exceeds their ability.
That area of the cave is not "big passage" that suddenly squeezes into a no mount restriction with no "warning". It is a sidemount passage to start that gets tighter and more technical as it goes. Remember, two of the 4 thumbed the dive... So it must have been obvious to at least 50%.
Agreed some of it is training. Also as more divers get cave trained, you will have more that dive within their training when with their instructor and then once they get their card do whatever they want no matter how there were trained. It is not possible to train common sense into someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I could not agree more. There may be things that can be done with signs, markers or voodoo dolls but the real issue is training. Looking back, we need to really analyze the reason why these divers or at least how these divers got in to trouble in the first place. There are too many instructors just flat out not teaching! Sure they teach to the standards but teaching involves more then reading from a book. Is it morally wrong to teach backmount and not at least touch on sidemount and the hazards of diving in sidemount passage. Let's face it, SM is now mainstream. Passages are being lined right now that are SM only and yet those diehard BM folks won't acknowledge it. I'm not saying everyone here but many! It is the instructors job to teach and preach the do's and don'ts of diving. How else are the students going to learn? The Internet? If that your idea of teaching them then there lies the problem. We have dove for many years with few accidents and markers were not an issue. While it may help, I do not believe marking or removing markers will solve anything. These divers need to have it drilled into them through the education process. This means teaching them up front and saving lives in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
I think, just maybe that the two that thumbed the dive could possibly have silted it out, and maybe the other two thought since this is the horseshoe circuit, the best thing to do is keep going and stay in clear vis, as opposed to trying to turn around in a tight passage with next to zero vis. horseshoe circuit of course takes you back to the cavern, but this got tighter. one eventually decided to turn also, but the guy that didn't make it out under his own power could have essentially been in such bad vis, lost, dis-orientated etc.
I wasn't there, haven't talked to any of them, but one glaring problem just to me is there were too many divers, possibly.
Remember I'm just trying to make sense of it, and sometimes 2 and 2 don't add up to 4, so I may be way off.
Don't flame me bro.....
How about standardized markers that indicate side-mount routes and back mount routes? Ideally something that could be identified by sight and touch.
I think that it's a training problem. The first couple hundred feet of JB has more than 20 lines that I've poked around on, and even after a good number of dives in there I won't pretend I know how they all connect with my eyes closed. Some of them are semi backmountable, some are sidemount only, some are silty and small with no flow even when the main tunnel is cranking. As a general proposition, it's a bad idea to do them with a team of four (I gather that's what happened here) in backmount. It's too tricky to get everyone turned around in an orderly fashion when someone decides they've had enough, or realizes they are not where they thought they were. There's more huge cave in the pond than most of us could see in a lifetime, so maybe focus on that when you're diving these caves for the first time.
Agree with Brandon and Joe on talking to divers with more experience than me in a new cave or section, remembering all that my instructor taught me, and how rusty or smooth I am at the time. It protects my family, me, and the cave.
Just thinking outloud - what about a special arrow to designate areas that are side mount only. Using the Squirrel Passage as an example, would writing "SM" on the double arrows designating the jump or a single arrow with "SM" at the point where the passage narrows down to side mount be an option. Or would a certain color for any area to use caution be useful. For example, use a colored arrow with "SM" for the Squirrel Passage or a colored arrow with "Silty" for the Dark Water Tunnel at P1. Of course this may encourage some people to proceed down the route.
Colours I think dont work for several reasons (consistency, colour-blindness, viz, etc) but the idea of a notation sounds pretty good to me. What would be the harm?
Fixed it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
People just need to stop being stupid.
I first dived the passage where this latest incident happened a few years ago when I was diving backmount. It starts off being decent sized,takes a right turn then suddenly gets small. We turned and headed back to the gold line. One glance at the narrower passage ahead told me it was no place for backmount.
dumbing down the cave with new arrows and all that nonsense seems like a worse idea than smartening up the divers
I agree. What always amazes me is the divers who think that you can't have an amazing dive and stay on the mainline. I have no reason to do jumps and side tunnels until I learn as much as I can on the mainline. I feel too many divers just want to say they have "been there done that" and don't want to tell other divers when they ask how there dive was "it was just a nice mainline dive".Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
I agree with the training being the issue but Ian and Brian hit it on the head. We dont need signs or more crap in a cave. We need smarter cave divers.
+1 for training and slowly learning the cave systems by diving them. Maps and arrows are ok but nothing teaches the cave like experience.
I am not a skinny guy and I must know my limitations when I see or feel them and turn the dive. My training should prevent panic and get me out in zero viz. :arrowred
best dives i've ever had have been on goldline/mainline
I wonder if when you signed the waiver at dive spots or chked in, they could give you a map of the cave system with areas that could be dangerous marked on the map. You only get a map when you produce a cave card.
James, you are NEVER suppose to disagree with me....
Steve...you are the MANN
Or use common sense. If you are heading into an area that you aren't sure about, that might be time to turn the dive. I guess im assuming that all of us actually pay that close of attention too important things tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpcfire1
O I agree Kevin but we all know that there are ppl that dont think before reacting....I was just making a reference, like some places have a map set up...thats all..
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Dammit! Sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpcfire1
LOL, jk guys....I agree tho, the best and safest way to this is the diver them self.
This is what makes the CDF a great place!
TRAINING, SMARTER DIVERS, COMMON SENSE the fundamentals of a safe diving community.
Serious issues that need addressed in the cave community.
Just curious some of you might know, who trained these FULL cave divers?
Of the four rescues 3 were cave certified were they not?
I can understand but if a common name comes up then possibly there is a problem.
JCG
As side mount configurations are getting popular instructors should stress why in prior years side mount was a certification beyond full cave. There is a huge difference between diving side mount passages and diving side mount configuration in larger cave.
Going into small passages trying to force yourself through is a recipe for disaster and many new folks don't train to take off a cylinder as their instructor didn't intend for them to dive in tight places.
I'm not sure there is any easy/quick solution as there are more instructors than ever, lots of students and many of them in side mount configurations. It's only a matter of time before there are fatalities due to newer folks pushing into side mount passages; Edd's a hero but can't be everywhere.
Good points...thats why there is a SM classes, if you want to dive in SM areas...take the class....is it worth the life of you, your buddies, or anyone called upon to get you out. Its only $3-400. However, there are stupid ppl out there and as we say it in the fire service, its job security.
Why have line arrows at all then? It's just dumbing down cave diving. You should always know the location and direction of the nearest exit. Obviously if you need a line arrow you either were not trained properly, or you didn't pay attention in class?
For that matter, why have gold line? It just makes it easier for multiple teams to dive the same cave. More lazy people probably dive caves because they don't have to lay line the entire length of their route. Maps are just a crutch for people too impatient to learn cave systems through progressive penetration. Right?
Times are changing guys. Side mount, and the general popularity of the sport mean more divers going to more places in caves. You have a real-world example that could have resulted in three fatalities in a very short period of time, in the same system. You're all hyper-quick to jump on folks for exceeding their training (rightly so) but you have to examine the whole system with a critical eye if you really want to have a positive effect on the reduction of accidents. My god, three dead bodies might have some effect on the diving you get to do. If nothing else. think about that.
What would be your reaction with three deaths under your belt, all at Jackson Blue, just a few months apart? I get that that diver responsibility is probably a significant factor, perhaps, it's the only factor, but I'm not buying that. Stupid divers do stupid things all the time, and get away with it. These three guys are only alive, because of a miracle. Think about that for a second. A miracle (named Edd) is the only reason these guys are alive, all in one season, all in one particular spot of one particular cave.
This is what accident analysis is all about, examining a particular incident (or incidents) and figuring out a way to minimize or eliminate it's reoccurrence. It is a happy circumstance that it isn't being done postmortem, but I can't see a way that I won't be telling all of you "I told you so" six months or a year down the road.
I realize I'm the wrong person to be harping on this. I literally don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I'll be lucky to have Intro under my belt by this time next year...
But, I find it lazy and short-sighted to chalk all this up to training, to chalk all this up to dumb divers reaching beyond their grasp, to ignore an opportunity to look at the current system, and find where it may be lacking. It may very well be dumb divers, or poor training, but whatever it is, I sincerely hope I won't have to say "I told you so".
Sorry Alex but trash in a cave is not necessary. Training training and training. Just because you have that full cave card does not mean go explore. Get you lazy butt out there and LEARN, lots want the internet glory but not the work that goes into it. IMO, if you can't evaluate the dive and tell its getting too risky for your abilities, that person really needs to be golfing and not diving. At full cave, these divers in question, both incidents at this spot should have known better.
There is training levels that use the line...I dont think that it would be possible to run a line from the entrance all the way to the back of Ginnie or some of these other big systems unless you are going to find a way to carry 10000 feet of line....Arrows are there for reasons that are uncontrollable....Lights out, silt out, and such things to where when you do find the line you know which way is out...you dont swim with contact on the lines at all times to know "o i got turn around"...
I am not being an ass bout training and skill but you would not go dive 400ft with out the proper training even tho the hole goes that deep. You would get the right training to do it SAFELY or you would be on of he stupid ones if not. If there were not maps, then ppl would have no idea what is going on and where to go...If Edd was called to some cave down in High Springs to do a recovery and he doesnt dive that cave much, do you think if I walk up and say my buddy was in the "mud tunel", Edd is going to be like..oh yea, thats the 12th tunel in on the right and I have to make a jump at the big rock on the sidewall...NO, hes going to look at a map and find the location. Its called DIVE PLANNING.
Its simple, if you are not trained dont do it. If it is a place you shouldnt be, then dont go there. Im not sure of anything in life that doesnt require training or learning. You dont run into a cave and find out, O wait, im stuck because I went in a hole that I cant get out of now. NO you plan it first.
Its simple, whats going to be talked about when one goes beyond their training to see a nice area in a cave and gets in trouble. Then Edd comes and something happens to Edd, do you want that damn weight on your shoulders when you could have dove to your limit. Its one thing for a man to risk his life to go in for someone who had a problem, but having an issue from lack of training is not accecptable in my book. I dont ask my firefighters to perform task they are not trained in just because the situation is there. No we call upon the ppl that do have the right training to be in that spot.
I dont and im sure most wouldnt either!!!
I really don't understand the recent near-accident at all. The prior one seems to have been due to an instructor briefing or guiding students into the wrong passage because he didn't know the cave; this argues for having an instructor who knows the systems in which he is teaching. But this one seems to have been a team of divers who ended up on the wrong line and persevered until they were in serious trouble, which is a major judgment error, and I don't understand it.
I don't dive that much in FL, and although I've been in JB, I've never poked around enough to see where the passage these guys got into starts. I dive the mainline, and have never done a jump there.
But in MX, where I dive a LOT, there are places I'd like to go . . . there is, for example, some very interesting-looking passage in downstream Grand, but the map indicates that getting there involves a lot of small cave. I didn't go and try it out -- I got hold of people who know the caves there, and asked, "Can we get to the good stuff safely?" And they said, "No." So I wrote that off.
I've tried other passages that I hadn't seen on maps. Whodunit68 will remember doing some jumps off the Parker line in Nohoch with us -- I swam forward until I ran into a triple T in low, silty passage, and I said, "No, this is above my pay grade," and turned the team.
It seems to me that the essence of being a safe tourist cave diver is making EVERY questionable decision in the direction of safety, rather than adventure. People like Aj and Brian, who live with the caves and dive them constantly, are probably in good shape making "adventure" decisions. The stories about repairing broken line and remaining composed throughout kind of support that. Those of us who make a couple or a few trips a year really ought to set the algorithm so that if anything is questionable, it's resolved in the direction of "no".
Very well said LCF!!
So lines and arrows are in caves for certain reasons? Yet you have people (for whatever reason) making the same navigation errors at the same place in the same cave.
I get the training argument, I get the judgment argument. We're all trained to drive motor vehicles, we all know the rules of the road, there's always going to be a percentage of folks that ignore the rules, or drive beyond the ability, but, when you have multiple people driving off a cliff you put in a speed bump, a cop with a radar gun, a flashing yellow sign, something.
You've had three people almost jump a cliff on the same stretch of road, yet the consensus is: Dude shoulda braked sooner.
I know that no one wants speed limits and stop signs when they're trying out their new Porsche, but you won't even try to work out a solution, or find a better way? Is cave diving going to lose it's luster because there's an extra cookie somewhere in a mile-long cave?
Is it so terrible to have something in place that confirms my belief about something? I've noticed that most of the caverns I dive have a reaper sign at the edge of the cavern zone. I don't need that sign to tell me I've reached a restriction, or the edge of the daylight zone, but my decision is reinforced by it being there. I think caves would be much prettier without reaper signs, but it's a reasonable trade off for what you get.
I'm not advocating neon signs, I'm saying it looks (from a noob's perspective) like you have a hole in the system, especially when you consider how the sport is changing.
BINGOQuote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
Training should include being able to recognize that your tall backmount profile will not only damage the cave environment needlessly, but its also increasing(exponentially) the chance that you are going to get stuck in this (very) obviously best done in sidemount passage.
I would favor both more explicit training AND warning signs. My open water insrructor was very emphatic about 2 points:
1. Don't do anything you haven't been trained to do.
2. In a new area, seek local knowledge.
My cave instructors added:
3. Never do a blind circuit (unless you can do the entire circuit on thirds).
4. Put your name on your reel so that you know it's your reel when you start the completion of the circuit.
Warning signs might help those who fail to seek local knowledge. They might also help those who get bad local knowledge or think they are someplace other than where they are.
Problem is those same marker are there for Young’s and Double Lines. They actually mark the jumps to the right more than the jump to the left. The issue is people are either being given incorrect information or not understanding the cave enough. Supposedly both teams were looking for the Horseshoe Circuit but neither went there. Instead they went to a different jump. The two jumps are very different from each other and very easily distinguishable from each other. It should be no problem telling someone how to get to each one without confusing the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
That section is on the map and does show that it gets smaller. When you look at the map it just ends rather than coming back out at the 1st breakdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
There is a new map in the works. It just takes time to map a system that large.Quote:
Originally Posted by rddvet
Actually, it is big passage at the beginning. It doesn’t squeeze down into smaller passage until after you’ve hit the 90 degree turn to the right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegg
But Sandy, how will we know if it’s a system marker or one of your personal markers??? LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy
Duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Exactly my point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
But somehow two different groups of divers couldn't tell the difference for some reason.
I knew that was coming Rob but was not sure if it would be you, Barbara or ArcticMike:)
Mat - agree. First time we dove that passage(SM), I turned it. Turns out we were < 25 feet from the end but something was not right. The second time was a non event.
Y'know, there are some people to whom you can provide knowledge and they will happily act within their abilities.
There are others to whom you provide knowledge and they happily press the envelope.
You really cannot MAKE people think. You can wish they would, you can hope they consider and analyze, but you just cannot MAKE anyone think.
Divers dive safely within the current signs / lines, etc. Just like drivers drive safely within the current road markings / signs, etc.
May we PLEASE stop trying to redesign the world over the one or two "oops" or idiots? You will NEVER keep everyone safe / alive.
Where to start, where to start....I don't have all the details about these accidents, but as in most accidents, there is a series of events that could have been stopped at any point, but were allowed to progress too far to safely return.
Both of these dives had poor or incomplete plans before they left the divers left the surface. Sometimes that is ok, but means you have deferred all risk assessment to happen in real time on the dive. Is the team capable of doing that? Be honest with yourself. If you aren't capable of making proper assessments, get someone to dive with you that has more experience, knows the location, or both.
Case 1: Instructor and 2 students plan a simple jump. None of the divers are familiar with the jump including the instructor. I don't know who the instructor teaches for (it's not NACD or NSS-CDS, I've looked at the online instructor lists). I don't know if there are any standards this violates, but it seems pretty basic not to be doing training in a location that you are not familiar with, both to protect the cave and the students. Anyways, on the dive they located the wrong jump. They continue swimming as the passage gets smaller and siltier. The guy in front goes through some pretty nasty stuff and never stops to turn the dive. Student in position 2 is certainly following line in low to 0 vis going into the passage and never has the sense to stop. The instructor in the 3rd position doesn't fit and can't see anything, and does have enough sense to realize there is a big problem. He realizes that he couldn't do anything to fix it. I don't know if it was a gutsy call to leave and get help or terror inspired or what. I'm sure that was very difficult, but he got lucky that he got to Edd and the students didn't run out of gas before Edd found them. The entire spiral of events after the first couple of mistakes is unclear, but they didn't follow the basic tenant of getting on line and reversing course. Why, I don't know but the incident could have been avoided well before they found themselves in that position.
Case 2: A group of divers (4) plans to do a jump in a side passage that is unknown to all of them. I don't know if they were a team of 4 or 2 teams of 2 but they seemed to all be diving together. This was the first mistake: Going into small unknown territory with a large team. In large cave, there can be a little bit of safety in numbers, but in smaller passages this is simply not a good idea, especially in unknown territory. They had gathered some information about where they planned on going but not enough. So on the dive, they missed the jump as the team above. At least this time some of the team did not follow. I don't have any details from here to continue, but at least the first guy got too far into trouble and was also unable to back track. We know that they didn't have any idea where they were because even when describing to Frank and Edd where the missing diver was last seen, they told him it had occurred in the other jump. They had no idea they had been in the wrong location.
In the caves, we can't safety proof everything. Even if we could where does it stop? At some point the diver in the water has to make a judgement call. In both of these dives, the lead diver made the mistake of not turning around soon enough. What is easy for you may not be easy for me, and vice versa. As a diver, you have to look ahead and evaluate if what you can see is within your capabilities. If you can't see the next corner or the next wide spot that you can turn around in and you continue, you have just accepted an unknown risk. If you are touching the ceiling and the silt at the same time, you didn't just appear there, you had to intentionally go into it. Do we need a sign that says this is an advanced passage, or is the height of the passage and fine silt on the floor enough?
I agree with Ben, no matter what measures you put into place eventually you have to make a decision in the water. I have dove that passage and several others that are quite small for me, 5'10'' and 240lb. But I asked lots of questions before I tied in that line. I knew where I was going and what to expect and I have yet to get into passage that I was surprised by. If I EVER do a small passage and seem surprised by the passage I encounter I can assure you I will turn around.
That passage is on the map. Along with the Horseshoe Circuit. If you plan your dive properly and know the map you would easily know that there are two jumps in close proximity to each other. And you would know that coming from where they started one turns to the left, one to the right. As soon as that passage took a 90 degree turn to the right the well informed diver should at least think that they might be in the wrong place.
And if I remember correctly, its been a few months since I have been in that passage. Before it gets really nasty it looks nasty.
If you go in a cave to just "make some jumps" Darwin will show up!!!
You are correct, I do remember and it seemed to have lasting positive impact. I have taken the jump in question and just after that 90º right turn, I turned us around. It was unknown passage to us and I had zero doubt that my buddy would be 100% ok with my call. We may return to it but it will be on the way in and planned, knowing what we are dealing with.Quote:
Originally Posted by LCF
This isn't redesigning the world. The unfortunate reality is that evolution of ideas often stems from errors and lack of judgement. This terrible lack of judgement nealy cost someone his life. Let's leave out the name calling. Street signs DO change. Just because it works fairly well now doesnt mean we should ignore the possibility of making improvements. I am not saying change anything, I am suggesting we remain open to ideas and suggestions as well as disussingthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Mark, that is compete B.S. You are at least 5'10 1/2".Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc
Yes, it goes nasty with sufficient warning.
The problem with some other method of letting someone know that there is small cave ahead is if they do not heed the warning that should have gone off in his head after making that 90 degree turn what makes you think he would have paid attention to any other signs. You still have to make that judgement that "I shouldn't be here, this is over my training and skill level". A call I have made a lot. And if my buddy is not ok with it, I need a new buddy.
Was talking with someone who has the task of examining equipment as part of accident investigations and he said something like "It's never the equipment." meaning that almost all accidents are the result of diver error at some level. You could put in lines, lights, signs, and anything else you can think of and there would still be accidents. The bottom line is that our most valuable piece of equipment is mounted between our ears. When we fail to take full advantage of it we get into trouble. A renewed emphasis on the fundamentals is called for. We all need to step back and take another look at Training, equipment, experience, planning, practice, and emergency preparedness. Situational awareness and calm action will take you a long way.
+1 I know I have seen several people warned and then they did not listen. I think maybe more should be done on certifying agencies side, too many seem to slip through the cracks and get cards that should have flunked their class.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc
I agree with you guys but how do you get hundreds of PADI instructors to all of a sudden start reinforcing the messages? I think it doesn't happen and we end up with more people that aren't so lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
yes, true. very. so do we not take extra precaution and help these people because agencies are not fulfilling their responsibilities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Why is there a sign @ Rocky Horror? Should we take it out? Why is there a sign at the Devil's Eye? Anyone with half a brain can see it was dark in there after the flooding. A few small extra precautions hurt no one.
Perhaps cave/technical diving instructors should publish their pass/fail rates? The professors who give A's to most of their students at the college where my wife teaches are poor instructors who never challenge their students to go beyond the lazy study habitats they developed in high school. Ironically, those professors get high scores on RateMyProfessor and frequently earn "best instructor" awards! There's something to be said about bell-shaped curves and quality vs. quantity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Dave
@ Steve. Im talking Nss, NACD, Tdi and so on. I think too many instructors are about money and recognition. That needs to stop.
Dave I agree, add dead students to the list.
lol that will never happen
you silly people
My cave instructor never failed a single student.Quote:
Originally Posted by loquat149
Of course, he didn't pass everyone, either. What he did was teach the course and if/when you learned all the skills, he gave you your card. It might be on the first weekend or it might be on the tenth weekend (he didn't charge you to come along on subsequent trips and dive with whomever he was teaching), but as soon as you learned all the skills, you got your card. If you gave up before ever getting the card, I guess you got an incomplete. But he didn't fail you.
Sevreal weeks back, we were out to dinner with Jason Richards. He said after class his instructor made him dive with him for 6 months or so and then he got his card. I like that, we need instructors who will do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
those are both really, really good. I was in Mexico doing my full cave a couple years back and it's not the same scale as you guys are talking but I had to do several days of extra dives/skills (mostly valve drills) to pass. My wallet wasn't happy but I'm glad it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
You know, while I agree with this for many things, some people just don't have any business in underwater caves. Diving skills is one thing, but there are temperaments and attitudes that don't need to be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
Yes, we had the same instructor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
He felt that having the right attitude and temperament were "necessary skills."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M
So we're talking about this passage?
http://i.imgur.com/nnsoL.png
I've taken that jump. It's an awkward passage. IIRC it's a bit of a vertical fissure or an inverted T. I remember having to turn a bit sideways to proceed. I was second in a team of two. I stopped at the limit of my comfort, while the lead diver proceeded a bit further on. 10 or 20 feet later he made his own decision to turn the dive. It's not a nice passage. I don't know how much further someone could have pushed in there, the lead diver would have had a much better view than I did.
That being said, I can imagine a situation where you "know" the cave is passable, so you keep pushing. Simply not aware you are not where you think you are.
Diver should know better. There is no question. How long can we keep complaining about the quality of training and the quality of divers, when there is very little accountability or incentive pushing the industry to change the quality of either. The only incentive at the moment is for instructors and agencies to crank out certifications. The fact that you can still get quality cave training speaks volumes about the nature of people in this sport.
We have to adapt to the decrease in average quality and increase in quantity of divers.
Maybe all that's needed is a tag at the start of the line with the name of the passage. You can have them done with the name of the discoverer and year it was first lined. Add a little historical significance to the caves, and give them an absolute indication of the passage they are actually in.
You beat me to it. Almost everyone can eventually learn the skills. Most people can eventually gain the situational awareness. But there are people that will never have the proper attitude and are dangerous to themselves and everyone around them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M
An instructor I know actually refused to teach a prospective student an overhead class because the instructor felt that the prospective student did not have the proper attitude for technical diving. I find that very commendable because there are too many people out there that are willing to hand out cards in exchange for money.
What can a sign tell me about tight or silty passage that my own eyes cannot?
Perhaps some people accept more risk and want to go grinding along through passage they don't fit through; is a sign going to stop that type or embolden them?
While I do not think we need to start grading jumps difficulty wise, what would it hurt to put a name of the jump on the arrow marking it? While your tieing in, you look and confirm your where you think you are, and if your not, it's a chance to reorient yourself? I'm just talking about a name written on the arrow that is there already.
I've gotten over 100 dives in JB, I dive it ten times as much as anything else, and still I have seen very little of it, no map that I have ever seen shows even most of the cave, and I hear all the time, names of places that I have been, but don't know where it is, as I've never seen a map with many names on it.
Madison Blue has names written on jump arrows arrows. I have never heard anyone complain about them.
Sounds strangely like a mentor type relationship. Best way to go in my book. Too seldom used, but still available if you're lucky enough to come across oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Carlisle
Jeff
Diveconjeff@yahoo.com
Yes, Jamie was the best instructor I've ever seen. What was great was he had a following in Georgia like no other. He would go to cave country every couple of weeks or so, and current and former students would follow him around like the Pied Piper. Whichever spring he was at on a given day, there would be a dozen or so people to dive with, at varying levels of certification. I made many intro dives with his full cave graduates, and later when I was full cave I made dives with his intro divers. (This is the reason I have a policy that I will never refuse a dive with an intro or apprentice diver who asks me.)Quote:
Originally Posted by diveconjeff
One reason Jamie could do this was he had a full-time job and only expected his teaching income to break even - if at the end of the year his teaching income equaled his teaching expenses, he was happy.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
I appreciate labeled survey arrows that can be tied back to a map.
You bring up a good point Russell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
When making your mortgage payment depends on your teaching cave students, volume will become more important than quality.
Six months ago my buddy and I took a sm class with Edd. There were 3-4 students, an instructor candidate and Edd in the water at the same time. We had broken up into 2 groups to keep the teams small, but we all had the same dive plan. The dive before we had done the beanie tunnel and the horseshoe circuit. Yes, it was a lot of people going through these small tunnels, but everyone did a good job of watching their trim and finning technique. While it got a little dusty, it did not get blown out. The last dive was the squirrel/LST jump, the 90 deg right turn mentioned above. Edd led the first team through the tunnel while the second team swam up the main line to meet them at the exit. I was on the second team and when it was our turn to make this side jump we found that the first team had blown the viz to about 2-3 feet. (No finger pointing here as it has nothing to do with my point.) Edd was leading the dive and headed into the cloudy water and disappeared. I was the second diver, but I stopped and looked at Edd's light disappear into the fog bank. I had a decision to make, to proceed or not?
This dive was taking place after the lost student incident and I knew that we were diving the exact same tunnel where that event happened. I really wanted to see the passage and I had confidence in my skills even if this was only my 3rd dive in side mount configuration. My regular dive buddy had just been through the passage, with Edd, 5 minutes before. Obviously, I was diving with Edd and could not have been in better hands, so what was my hesitation? I knew I could make the dive, but I asked myself "if Edd were not leading the dive, would I proceed?" The honest answer was no. In my opinion, entering a sm passage that was already blown out and only having 3 side mount dives under my belt was foolish. So, I decided not to proceed. The passage will be there the next time I visit, the visibility will be better and I'll have more side mount dives under my wing.
Did I feel like a wus? Sure did, especially when Edd told me it cleared up 20' in. Do I regret not following Edd? Yes and no. Yes because I don't want to be intimidated by a little dirty water and look like a chicken s**t to my dive buddies. No, because you have to be honest with yourself when it comes to taking risks. Just because Edd was there did not mean it was a smart thing for me to do.
The bottom line is that these incidents will only stop when cave divers become honest with themselves. As we all know, this is probably never going to happen. I'm all for better training, but instructors are not going to solve this issue. I don't have any problem with better maps and/or markers and would love to see them, but they are not going to solve the problem either. The good news is that we have a positive ending to several incidents that could have turned out very different. These incidents will be shared throughout the community and let's hope they will prompt more divers to be honest with themselves and not let any kind of pressure push them into a situation they are not prepared for.
Just for the record, I have no problem with labeling the first arrow to a jump. I just do not think it will solve the problems as much as personal responsibility for where you are and what you are doing.
I'm just proposing a solution for what seems to be the issue here; pushing in to this passage and thinking you are somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc
I like labeled arrows but I don't think they solve the issue of people going where they should not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
Know your limits and have the discipline to turn your dive well before you hit them.
It won't, but it will solve the issue of people going there because they think they're somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin Rhoda
I agree, but I don't think that was the issue here. These people were doing "trust me" dives, based on second hand information. "Go in, it will turn to the right, go through a bit of a restriction, then it will loop back around." You think you're in the right place, and this restriction must open up just ahead, so you keep pushing. In that exact situation, I think more than 3 diver make that same mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin Rhoda
I didn't see anyone answer this. There was an old post from 2002 that described some of the jumps in the front of JB (http://www.cavediver.net/old_reports/cdf_report_018.htm). This is one of the pictures (inline link is now dead):Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
Attachment 7430
I've done this multiple times in BM. As I recall it gets a bit dusty, but following this path, it's not what I would consider SM. Did this diver (these divers) take a different jump off of this? (Granted it was just me and my buddy and not 4 divers, which would be a bit much).
-Tom
I hear you. I just think the mistake is one of divers going forward in conditions that exceed their ability. Perhaps the "trust me" aspect is the problem. If you get to the point where you'd rather go forward than back a mistake has already been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
I accept that a sign saying "warning will robinson, this passage is not for you" will keep some people from accidentally taking it thinking it is something else. I just think it's a mistake for them to not be evaluating the conditions for themselves in real time.
Does a sign that says "Left to SUDDEN DOOM, Right to pie and icecream" cause someone to continue on the right fork even if the conditions happen to be particularly miserable? "The sign said this way is easy so we should just keep going and it's bound to get better just around the bend..."
I've taken lots of jumps (in MX) that I quickly realized were not for me; it's a simple thing to turn, pull the jump, and look for a better passage.
I feel for the folks who got in trouble, I just think of this more as a training and mindset issue.
Respectfully,
Merlin
3 different jumps go of the one set of arrows at this point. Maybe just write real small? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot
Then maybe an arrow on the beginning of the jump line itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ianr33
Yes, that's the passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwood_60
From what I understand the team realized they were in the wrong passage shortly after making the turn to the right. What happened was they didn't pay attention to the line wrap at that turn and he wasn't able to find the line leading out. Apparently, he let go of the line he was on before finding the line and when he found the line it was the same line he had let go of, which led back into the passage. Then when he got to the end of the line he went off of it and followed the wall without deploying a safety. This is second-hand information so I won't vouch for it's accuracy but I can see this happening.