what steps should one take...

Along the path to full cave certification. Right now I am open water certified. Full cave is my future goal. Im not interested in getting there as fast as I can. Im more interested in getting there effectively. Basically what I am looking for is an outline on the best way to get from the point I am at now, to where I want to be. What kinds of habits I should avoid, what kinda of gear i should look out for/avoid. What kinds of skills should I focus on to better prepare myself.

I am learning sidemount now. I have a hollis sms100 and so far I think that it is great!. My dive buddy is walking me through it now. She has been diving for several years and is cave certified. I have asked her a million questions already, but figured I would post up here to take some of the burden off of her.

Full disclosure:" I am not interested in penetrating caves/caverns before I am trained to do so. I already know the allure of it, but am well aware of the risks. Frankly, Im not ready to take those risks. I just want to be as prepared as I can be on my first day of intro class. If my instructor tells me Im not ready, then Ill work till I am ready. Just hoping to have a good foundation so that maybe that will not be the case.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

BUOYANCY, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY TRIM. Those are some of the most important things that need to me mastered at any level. Get very comfortable with all your gear to the point that its all second nature. Nothing is better than any time in the water.

Bouyancy, bouyancy and a good frog kick.

Lately I have been able to get into an every other week dive pattern. Hopefully, I will be able to keep that up! My frog kick has already received some critique from my dive buddy. I feel like I am very feet heavy. I am constantly feeling like i need to hold them up. I just bought some dive rite fins from another member, so maybe they will help with that feeling. Right now I am using Akona marathons. I kind of hate them. They are heay, and dont seem to move water very well.

Have you taken a SM class or had a SM diver look at your setup to make sure its right. You can go lighter on fins, but you can move cam bands and all kind of stuff to help with feet heavy part. You can add weight, restrict the air in the wing, and alot more.

My dive buddy has been using sidemount for quite a while. She has been working with me to get everything sorted out. Apparently, I look better in the water than I feel.

I do have another question though. Is it ok for me to stow my hoses on the cylinder and deploy directly from left and right rather than route both 2nd hoses around my neck? I do not care to have hoses around my neck. I was considering purchasing a left side 2nd stage for this purpose.

Be able to hover in one spot while horizontal and not moving anything at all. Then be able to perform tasks doing the same thing.


In other words:

BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, BUOYANCY, TRIM, etd.

And don't rush it. if it takes three years and you do 200 dives on the way all the better.

Step 1: Save lots of money
Step 2: Save more money
Step 3: Dive and work on buoyancy, esp while doing tasks
Step 4: Save a little more money
Step 5: Take advanced open water or a buoyancy course, or both
Step 6: Work on buoyancy and trim
Step 7: Start spending all of that money you've been saving
Step 8: Take Cavern or Cavern/Intro
Step 9: Ponder how you ever were able to save money before, and also how you have more gear than you ever thought a diver could own
Step 10: Dive and work on your buoyancy more because you realize your trim wasn't as good in your cavern class as you thought it was before class
Step 11: Spend your last $30 to stay in a run down hotel that hasn't been upgraded since the last murder in what you once thought was a podunk town but is now you're favorite place to be, and be happy about it because you get one more day of diving in
Step 12: Post a thread on the forum asking if there's another 12 step program to help you kick your cave diving habit because you're wife and dog complain that they never see you and your addiction keeps you broker than if you had a cocaine addiction (no pun pertainining to any certifying agencies intended)

LOL. The things i could have done with the cash i have already spent on diving... Good investments as far as I am concerned though. AOW course should be in the near future. I dont have a drysuit yet, so it may have to wait for warmer weather. Dive Alabama is not very far from my house or work so it is quite convenient to train there. What sorts of tasks should I attempt to do. Up to this point I mostly practice a few drills, and do some sort of training on every dive, rather than just look at fish/objects. Last weekend she had m us do an out of air drill and practice navigating back to our entry point while sharing air. It was a great demonstration of why I need 7" of rubber hose stashed away.

If you are starting to feel like you are getting the hang of things then try some reel and spool work. Dive in some very dark places and practice light signals.

Guess Ill have to get some lights and a reel then. Last weekend, someone was running a reel in the quarry(I dont know why, practice maybe), and I was shown how whomever it was didnt not do a very good job. The way it was tied off was very sloppy and the line was run high and in the way.

So far sidemount feels great. It was almost like a great revelation to move the weight off my back and to my sides. The experience was more profound than i expected. It is the most comfortable that I have been in the water to date. On my first dive buoyancy was a little rough, but vastly improved on my second dive. Aside from the "heavy feet",(which is how I feel in any configuration) I cant find anything to complain about.

Whats the best way to learn different finning techniques? Apparently my frog kick needs some work, and I have been told what to do, but I cant see to make my legs do what I have been told. I guess the best way I can put it is: I know how it feels to do what I am doing now, but I dont know what it feels like to do it properly. How do I go about making that transition?

Another $.02 adding a practice technique that may help the foot heavy feeling or frog kick, or both. All credit to Aletheia, unless I screwed up the description in which case the blame is all mine.

Set up lying on your stomach on a table or bench. Head and shoulders slightly over the edge, pillows or anything else under your hips to allow the tops of your shoulders to be slightly lower that the tops of your hips with your body straight. Try a couple of kicks without fins, just to get the feel of hanging over the edge and keeping your knees up. The real practice starts with fins on. Keeping your knees off the table/bench by tightening your abs and glutes, frog kick slowly and deliberately. Really focus on each part of the kick separately-you're not going anywhere, anyway, so don't rush it. I'll assume you're looking at video or getting coaching or both.

What you get from this exercise is, well exercise, and feedback. You may find that even if your knees aren't hitting the table your feet will still "feel" heavy to you (I know, I know- especially because your not in the water they will feel heavy)- but if they're not hitting the table, then you're not dropping them enough to matter most places in the water *and* you will be re-training yourself as to what it is like to "feel" heavy and still be all right. If you can spend a 1/2 hour-1 hour constantly kicking and not feel your knees hit the table.... Have fun and good luck!

For me, the greatest difficulty was running a reel in decreasing depth while maintaining neutral buoyancy, especially retrieving said reel when coming out because you can't go slow, your being blown out.
I'm starting my kid in a couple of weeks, and before his first day of class I want him to have the basics, to include reel work down pat. We will see if this is a good thing or not, I'm concerned as I'm no instructor, I may teach him incorrectly.

Hello offroadr1 your willingness to learn is a great attribute and the advice given is all correct.
Even the humorous ones are true!
Learning the rig is a big help and adjusting it to YOU is vital to getting your trim / buoyancy down.
I struggled for about a year trying everything then sought out some professional help.
It put my trim into proper alignment and then I finished customizing with little tweaks.

The other advice I would give is to train every dive.
What does that mean? Every dive has purpose or skills that build on one another.
I promise you once you feel your trim is good, go run a reel in a silty area it will humble you.
Do this in OW with a like minded buddy!

Working with reels should begin above water!
Practice your tie in, placement, etc. around the house / outside.
Gain familiarity with your reels.

You can work on some skills but if you learn incorrectly you have doubled your cave instructors job training you correctly.
I would contact the instructor I was going to use and get his advice and gear specs.
No offense to the mentor who is working with you just been there and done the exact same thing!
You will pick up habits some good, some bad either way it slows your training down. It did me!
It is fairly easy to include a instructor in the mentor process and it is good for mentor and student.
I have learned quite a bit along the way as student and student mentor!

JCG

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Originally Posted by a64pilot

... We will see if this is a good thing or not, I'm concerned as I'm no instructor, I may teach him incorrectly.

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There is an even bigger problem with a relative teaching, instructor, or not. I wouldn't worry about the reel, just work on buoyancy and trim for now.

Buoyancy, trim, PROPULSION, and awareness of surroundings/situation. Propulsion is more than just the frog kick.

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Originally Posted by mer

...Propulsion is more than just the frog kick.

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Wouldn't it be a little early to learn the best propulsion technique .... scootering? :-D

along with buoyancy, trim, and propulsion, the class lineup i would recommend is...

aow, nitrox, lots of dives with a mentor, cavern or cavern & intro, lots of dives, advanced nitrox, deco procedures, some dives, apprentice & full.

others may disagree, but i think an/dp needs to be done before app&full.

Find local mentors. I had 2 experienced divers (Tony Chaney and ArticMike) that mentored me from Ow to Cave. They were able to fine tune my techniques and show me several schools of thought. I was shown what worked for them and what did not. We practiced all the skills needed in OW and that allowed me to breeze through my class.

As others said Buoyancy, trim, and Frog kick need to be mastered first.

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Originally Posted by Rhino

Another $.02 adding a practice technique that may help the foot heavy feeling or frog kick, or both. All credit to Aletheia, unless I screwed up the description in which case the blame is all mine.

Set up lying on your stomach on a table or bench. Head and shoulders slightly over the edge, pillows or anything else under your hips to allow the tops of your shoulders to be slightly lower that the tops of your hips with your body straight. Try a couple of kicks without fins, just to get the feel of hanging over the edge and keeping your knees up. The real practice starts with fins on. Keeping your knees off the table/bench by tightening your abs and glutes, frog kick slowly and deliberately. Really focus on each part of the kick separately-you're not going anywhere, anyway, so don't rush it. I'll assume you're looking at video or getting coaching or both.

What you get from this exercise is, well exercise, and feedback. You may find that even if your knees aren't hitting the table your feet will still "feel" heavy to you (I know, I know- especially because your not in the water they will feel heavy)- but if they're not hitting the table, then you're not dropping them enough to matter most places in the water *and* you will be re-training yourself as to what it is like to "feel" heavy and still be all right. If you can spend a 1/2 hour-1 hour constantly kicking and not feel your knees hit the table.... Have fun and good luck!

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This is what I was looking for regarding the frog kick. How I could mimic that action and feel the correct way! Thank you! Ill just have to wait until my room mate is not home. Would rather not have an audience as I frog Kick on the coffee table...

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Originally Posted by JCGoodwin

Hello offroadr1 your willingness to learn is a great attribute and the advice given is all correct.
Even the humorous ones are true!
Learning the rig is a big help and adjusting it to YOU is vital to getting your trim / buoyancy down.
I struggled for about a year trying everything then sought out some professional help.
It put my trim into proper alignment and then I finished customizing with little tweaks.

The other advice I would give is to train every dive.
What does that mean? Every dive has purpose or skills that build on one another.
I promise you once you feel your trim is good, go run a reel in a silty area it will humble you.
Do this in OW with a like minded buddy!

Working with reels should begin above water!
Practice your tie in, placement, etc. around the house / outside.
Gain familiarity with your reels.

You can work on some skills but if you learn incorrectly you have doubled your cave instructors job training you correctly.
I would contact the instructor I was going to use and get his advice and gear specs.
No offense to the mentor who is working with you just been there and done the exact same thing!
You will pick up habits some good, some bad either way it slows your training down. It did me!
It is fairly easy to include a instructor in the mentor process and it is good for mentor and student.
I have learned quite a bit along the way as student and student mentor!

JCG

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Thank you for your advice. This is exactly the kind of information that I am hoping to learn from this thread. I want to sort out the skills that I am capable of learning at this point, that will not cause issues later when I am receiving instruction. I hope to have Edd as my instructor. About 90% of the money I have spent on diving has been with him anyhow. I stopped by his place on a recent dive trip just to kill some time and check out the park. In the short time I was there, I learned more about my equipment than I had total to date. The way he presented the information was very impressive to me. Everything he said made sense, and had a good explanation as to why it was done that way. I dont want my practice at this point to substitute cave training. I just want to be ready for class in the sense that when I arrive, I want to be a competent diver so that I can learn to cave dive rather than learn to dive properly, then learn to cave dive. The less bad habits I learn now, the less there is to undo later so that i can focus on learning new material, not relearning what I should already know.

The quarry near me is dark and silty. The have several swim through tubes and other structures around. I am thinking it might be an ideal place to cave dive without a cave. I dont think I am quite ready to run reels yet, but this is definitely food for thought. I hope to keep this thread going as I progress so that I have a good reference and way to track my performance along the way.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

along with buoyancy, trim, and propulsion, the class lineup i would recommend is...

aow, nitrox, lots of dives with a mentor, cavern or cavern & intro, lots of dives, advanced nitrox, deco procedures, some dives, apprentice & full.

others may disagree, but i think an/dp needs to be done before app&full.

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Awesome. Most agency websites seem to be lacking in the area of explaining progression(to me anyhow). I have been very confused as to what is required advance. I was thinking along your same lines, but I am going to take a rescue class as well. I think it can only be beneficial.

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Originally Posted by BabyDuck

along with buoyancy, trim, and propulsion, the class lineup i would recommend is...

aow, nitrox, lots of dives with a mentor, cavern or cavern & intro, lots of dives, advanced nitrox, deco procedures, some dives, apprentice & full.

others may disagree, but i think an/dp needs to be done before app&full.

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I would advise against taking an/dp without trimix mixed in. If you don't, at least ask your instructor what depths he/she teaches at-- I've heard way too many horror stories of STUDENTS doing 130-150ft dives on air.

if you can find an an/dp/mix class, that would be great. i need to do mix now, but the prices are off-putting. so, yeah, i don't think you *need* mix for the caves, but having it doesn't hurt & would save effort & money on the other side.

Find a river with some decent vis for practice running a reel in flow. Rainbow River would be great, but I'm sure you can find something closer to you.

Your instructor isn't going to expect you to have perfect buoyancy, trim, and reel skills in Cavern and Intro... just good enough that you aren't a danger to yourself. The whole point is to teach you enough that you can start safely doing some simple dives in the cave environment. There really is no substitute for really being in a cave. If you understand the technique required for excellent buoyancy, can get yourself trimmed out, and are comfortable in your configuration... I say go for it. The worst thing your instructor can do is tell you that you need more practice.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Find a river with some decent vis for practice running a reel in flow. Rainbow River would be great, but I'm sure you can find something closer to you.

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Uhhh. He lives in Alabama. Good luck finding 6" vis around here.

I'm not trying to get to cave faster, just more effectively. I'm looking for the "if I had known this before"' or "I wish someone had told me this" kind of advice.

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Originally Posted by Greenwood_60

Find a river with some decent vis for practice running a reel in flow. Rainbow River would be great, but I'm sure you can find something closer to you.
.

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Upper Niagara River, after a big rainstorm. 10+mph current. 5 ft vis. And a GREAT incentive not to get washed downstream!

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Originally Posted by Slüdge

Uhhh. He lives in Alabama. Good luck finding 6" vis around here.

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I did say "closer"... and he would have to drive through all of N. FL to get there...

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

I'm not trying to get to cave faster, just more effectively. I'm looking for the "if I had known this before"' or "I wish someone had told me this" kind of advice.

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The most effective way is to get qualified eyes on you. An instructor, a mentor, another cave diver, a camera, some pictures... There is only so much you can feel your way through. After just short of 100 dives in SM, I learned more about my configuration from a single picture of me than I had in the last 20 dives.

The next time you dive count the number of times you try to swim with you hands or do a flutter kick. Then on your surface interval punch yourself in the nose repeatedly according to the number you counted.

(kidding of course, but they are habits you may need to break)

Lol. Yes, I have to break the flailing arms habit. 29 years of swimming and now I'm not supposed to use my hands.

I intended to have some video to look at, but forgot the memory card for the gopro last time we went out.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

I would advise against taking an/dp without trimix mixed in. If you don't, at least ask your instructor what depths he/she teaches at-- I've heard way too many horror stories of STUDENTS doing 130-150ft dives on air.

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Part of that is the idea some instructors have of dragging the student to the limits of the cert on the checkout dives with no real purpose other than to go there. In a combined AN/DP course, that means 150' on something like 25% nitrox with 1 or 2 deco gasses - usually 1 if the instructor or course progression wants to save some bottle management skills for normoxic trimix.

On the other hand, it's not all bad if the instructional intent is to have the student figure out they are narc'd beyond any useful ability at 150' and thus learn to scale it back a bit to somewhere in the 100-110 ft range, and doing the dives in a fairly controlled environment, but that does not always happen.

However, an AN'DP cert does not require the student to got to 150' - a 30-40 minute dive to 110-120' would work just as well for the deco, planning and bottle management skills. What ever flaws AN/DP may have, the advantage is that a progressing cave diver completes AN/DP and learns how to do decompression planning and masters the in water and bottle skills before showing up for a full cave class. In N FL full cave nearly always means doing dives that end up with a decompression obligation and the use of O2. While it's very common for full cave candidates to do this absent any formal decompression procedures training, it is in my opinion a situation where the student is then diving beyond the limits of his/her training during the class, and will continue to do so after the class.

I think taking AN/DP and understanding the problems with high ENDs is a much lesser evil than taking full cave absent AN/DP.

If you are talking about mix in an "AN/DP" course you are really talking about an extended range class with trimix for the last two dives, and that makes little sense as a) AN/DP is often a re-req and b) normoxic makes a lot more sense than extended range. I'd rather have a student do two more trimix dives and call it normoxic than do deep air dives instead and call it extended range.

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In any case, to the OP, the intent is to acquire the dive planning and bottle management skills required before you get to the point of doing decompression dives, especially in a cave. And having the training in advance reduces the stress and general ask overload that will occur in a cave class anyway. And whether you are certed to 150' or not, the max END in a cave should be no more than 130' per even the more liberal agency standards and most cave divers who've tried ENDs in that range, with or without mix, will probably suggest a max END of 100-110' instead.

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

Lol. Yes, I have to break the flailing arms habit. 29 years of swimming and now I'm not supposed to use my hands.

I intended to have some video to look at, but forgot the memory card for the gopro last time we went out.

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Video certainly helps.

If you are serious about going from OW to full cave in the fairly short term, then ensure that every dive you do in the interim is directed toward learning the skills needed for full cave - trim, perfect buoyancy control, propulsion techniques, line and reel skills, gas shares, all of the previous skills done in a blacked out mask, etc. Even in a quarry you can accomplish most of it, and swimming a 3"-6" inches off the bottom of a very silty quarry and not disturbing any silt is a good way to work on the fin and buoyancy techniques.

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

Video certainly helps.

If you are serious about going from OW to full cave in the fairly short term, then ensure that every dive you do in the interim is directed toward learning the skills needed for full cave - trim, perfect buoyancy control, propulsion techniques, line and reel skills, gas shares, all of the previous skills done in a blacked out mask, etc. Even in a quarry you can accomplish most of it, and swimming a 3"-6" inches off the bottom of a very silty quarry and not disturbing any silt is a good way to work on the fin and buoyancy techniques.

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Learning the what I need to know to be competent upon beginning cave class is my goal. The time frame is a non issue. If I am ready next year, great. If its 5 years, no problem. I am concentrating at this moment on being ready for cavern/intro. At that point I should be aware enough to modify my routines to be ready to focus on full cave.

Joey, she is more than capable of working with you and getting you ready to just go straight to an/dp from tech nitrox(TDI, not sdi/padi version). She is more capable than most instructors, and you would be better served saving AOW money for more dive time with her until you can do tech nitrox and just skip AOW. If Kelsey says you look good in the water then you are already better off than most of the people that have already done AOW haha.

Well, after 37 years of cave diving, I will give you my advice.

First, find an instructor that you trust.
Second, don't ask a bunch of random morons (like me) on a internet forum what you should do next.

Cheers, and good luck.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, after 37 years of cave diving, I will give you my advice.

First, find an instructor that you trust.
Second, don't ask a bunch of random morons (like me) on a internet forum what you should do next.

Cheers, and good luck.

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What he said.

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Originally Posted by CaveMD

... you would be better served saving AOW money for more dive time with her until you can do tech nitrox and just skip AOW. If Kelsey says you look good in the water then you are already better off than most of the people that have already done AOW haha.

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I agree that AOW is basically a waste of money in the chain of progression to technical diving. Depending on the agency it's just a collection of skills that used to be taught at the OW level, or a collection of specialties that are largely meaningless.

The problem is that AOW "or equivalent" is a pre requisite for AN/DP, so unless you've got an instructor who is willing to stipulate to the "or equivalent" piece, you'll need an AOW card to get in the AN/DP class.

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Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

What he said.

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You have been cave diving for 37 years? :-D

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Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster

I agree that AOW is basically a waste of money in the chain of progression to technical diving. Depending on the agency it's just a collection of skills that used to be taught at the OW level, or a collection of specialties that are largely meaningless.

The problem is that AOW "or equivalent" is a pre requisite for AN/DP, so unless you've got an instructor who is willing to stipulate to the "or equivalent" piece, you'll need an AOW card to get in the AN/DP class.

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Could always take cavern before an/dp and I'm sure nearly every instructor would accept that.

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Originally Posted by OFG-1

Well, after 37 years of cave diving, I will give you my advice.

First, find an instructor that you trust.
Second, don't ask a bunch of random morons (like me) on a internet forum what you should do next.

Cheers, and good luck.

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I appreciate the advice, but this is a place where like minded individuals gather to meet, discuss, and anything else that involves cave diving. Now being a rookie diver, I would imagine this site should be a pretty darn good resource for answering my questions and providing a little guidance along the way. Really my primary resource is my dive buddy. She has been cave diving for a while(not 37 years), but she is quite humbling to dive with. However she is also a full time student, has 2 jobs and tutors, so I do not want to burden her daily with a million questions. Although she answers everyone of them with not hint of annoyance, I know she is busy and takes the time to dive with me so I try not to be too bothersome.

Im looking for more of an outline and other opinions on how to reach my goal. The frog kick advice was just what I was looking for. I have read every post here multiple times so as not to forget what was said. I do not think any advice was moronic, but maybe I just dont know. All I know is somehow I managed to form a diving addiction, and that eventually I want to dive caves. If I show up to my first day of cavern/intro and Edd says that Im not ready, then Ill go back to the quarry and get ready. Im just trying to head that off at the pass.

You may want to practice insulting people. Make sure to include folks from england,new jersey and drunks as they respond well and will give you better experience.

The cave diving world is full of drama, it will take a lot of your mental skills to keep the alliances and current hates mapped out. You can start with venn or line diagrams to keep it all straight. When you hear stories be sure to keep in mind which bubble of the hate/alliance diagram is doing the speaking as you'd be amazed at how different each side ends up.

Each group is somewhat like high school cliques, they have a leader and hurl rocks at other groups while standing in glass houses. When the caves get blown out or conditions are poor the cliques start bouncing against the walls and attack each other. Each group is convinced they are much cooler, mature, good looking, environmentally conscience and less "good ol boys" than the others. Pick your clique carefully.

Read every cave diving book/manual you can get your hands on. Start with Shecks blue book from the nss.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../photo36-1.jpg
Definitely read "fear and loathing on the net" GI3 was a true master of the internet and many of us eagerly wait for his return.

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Step 1: Save lots of money
Step 2: Save more money
Step 3: Dive and work on buoyancy, esp while doing tasks
Step 4: Save a little more money
Step 5: Take advanced open water or a buoyancy course, or both
Step 6: Work on buoyancy and trim
Step 7: Start spending all of that money you've been saving
Step 8: Take Cavern or Cavern/Intro
Step 9: Ponder how you ever were able to save money before, and also how you have more gear than you ever thought a diver could own
Step 10: Dive and work on your buoyancy more because you realize your trim wasn't as good in your cavern class as you thought it was before class
Step 11: Spend your last $30 to stay in a run down hotel that hasn't been upgraded since the last murder in what you once thought was a podunk town but is now you're favorite place to be, and be happy about it because you get one more day of diving in
Step 12: Post a thread on the forum asking if there's another 12 step program to help you kick your cave diving habit because you're wife and dog complain that they never see you and your addiction keeps you broker than if you had a cocaine addiction (no pun pertainining to any certifying agencies intended)

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+1 ... so true

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

I appreciate the advice, but this is a place where like minded individuals gather to meet, discuss, and anything else that involves cave diving... The frog kick advice was just what I was looking for. ...

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I have to agree with OFG-1. While you can probably practice buoyancy control on your own, the other "advise" you are getting is pretty suspect. It is very difficult, if not impossible to learn trim, and the frog kick without observation from someone that knows how to teach. CaveMD said your buddy is good, and he may well know that, but if you practice something the wrong way, you will have to first un-learn the bad habits, then learn the right way.

The best advice I have seen here is take cavern first. Edd is a great instructor, and will get you started on the right path. Don't be embarrassed for not knowing how to be a perfect diver before class. Nobody else was :-)

FWIW, I started 5 years before OFG-1, and was a cave diving training director.

yeah, Hunter knows her.

So take cavern itself without intro? And use that to build a foundation and take intro at a later date? Just making sure I am clear here.

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

yeah, Hunter knows her.

So take cavern itself without intro? And use that to build a foundation and take intro at a later date? Just making sure I am clear here.

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Exactly! That way you will know what you need to practice for intro. You may never want/need advanced nitrox, or tirmix, but you won't know until you actually get into a cave and see if you really like it.

Cavern and Intro are two different classes, Not that the way I did it is the right way, but I took it one level at a time, dove until I got bored then took the next class. I spent a year diving almost every weekend before I got to full cave, But, I'm only a two hour drive away.

Makes sense. When I first heard about cave diving, I thought it was absolutely insane. But I have done some reading and asked questions and that helped. Then. I did a dive at morrison springs. Just in the basin and around the cavern entrance. Looked at eels and flounder. I had a light so i could see for a fairly good distance into the cavern. It was pretty amazing and thats really what cinched the deal in my mind that i wanted to dive caves.

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

yeah, Hunter knows her.

So take cavern itself without intro? And use that to build a foundation and take intro at a later date? Just making sure I am clear here.

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If you are a relatively new diver, that makes the most sense.

For an experienced technical diver moving from wrecks to cave, cavern and intro probably makes more sense as the basics are already mastered and they will (probably) be very solid in cavern skills after the first two days and will be ready to move into Intro on day 3.

That's about as close to zero to hero as I can agree with as I think there is a great deal of value in diving at the Intro level long enough to fully develop and integrate those skills before moving on to Cave.

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Originally Posted by jj1987

Could always take cavern before an/dp and I'm sure nearly every instructor would accept that.

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It would depend on the agency and their familiarity/comfort with cave diving. NACD and NSS-CDS are exceptions here, probably because they don't have a dog in the AOW fight, but most other agencies either require or recommend AOW first, probably as a revenue generator because they do have a dog in the AOW fight.

Again, I don't agree with it as I regard AOW the way it's usually taught as something of a joke for a technical oriented diver, but a non-NACD, non NSS-CDS instructor worried about agency standards may expect the AOW card or want to sell you the class while working up to AN/DP.

I took AOW prior to Tri-mix, AOW was what I had been certified to years ago anyway by the YMCA. AOW is a joke pure and simple, but then OW water Cert is a joke too.

Thats good to know.

While we're at it...

Advanced Nitrox/Deco Procedures: what you should have learned in your nitrox course had your instructor been diligent, coupled with what you should have learned in Open Water and had reinforced in your cave course.

:roll:

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Originally Posted by rddvet

Step 12: Post a thread on the forum asking if there's another 12 step program to help you kick your cave diving habit because you're wife and dog complain that they never see you and your addiction keeps you broker than if you had a cocaine addiction (no pun pertainining to any certifying agencies intended)

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HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHA, wish I could give you green for the laugh!

Dive safe,

Celia

PS You can never have enough gear.....or enough diving...

I had a chance to get in a couple dives this weekend. Kels and I went to madison quarry in huntsville. Its a smaal quarry, but they have some cool stuff to look at. F4 pfantom(i think), a 55ft missile etc. The dive was a little uncomfortable at first. I was wearing a 7mm wetsuit and using a cannister light to focus on keeping my hands where they needed to be. During the dive I was having trouble with both trim and buoyancy. I figured most of it had to do with going from 3mm to 7mm. I was also using heavier fins. For my next dive i put a 2lb weight on each shoulder and that made a world of difference. It was a much more comfortable dive and I did not have nearly the trouble I experienced on the previous dive. There is a 30ft long arched suspension bridge in the quarry. I was able to hover inches off of it and follow the arch without issue. It felt pretty good!

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Originally Posted by offroadr1

Along the path to full cave certification. Right now I am open water certified. Full cave is my future goal. Im not interested in getting there as fast as I can. Im more interested in getting there effectively. Basically what I am looking for is an outline on the best way to get from the point I am at now, to where I want to be. What kinds of habits I should avoid, what kinda of gear i should look out for/avoid. What kinds of skills should I focus on to better prepare myself.

I am learning sidemount now. I have a hollis sms100 and so far I think that it is great!. My dive buddy is walking me through it now. She has been diving for several years and is cave certified. I have asked her a million questions already, but figured I would post up here to take some of the burden off of her.

Full disclosure:" I am not interested in penetrating caves/caverns before I am trained to do so. I already know the allure of it, but am well aware of the risks. Frankly, Im not ready to take those risks. I just want to be as prepared as I can be on my first day of intro class. If my instructor tells me Im not ready, then Ill work till I am ready. Just hoping to have a good foundation so that maybe that will not be the case.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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The short answer is BUILD TIME IN THE WATER

The best divers in the world (at any level) are the ones that are the most comfortable in the water, comfort comes with time underwater, people that were introduced to water sports under the age of 10 have a huge advantage but this we can't control our parents/guardians made that choice for us.

Now there are always be those that love to point to the exception but to be blunt fools bet on exceptions to the rule, winners go home with the prom queen.

What I would do is take a cavern course, that will introduce you to specific skills necessary to be a successful cave diver, after that class practice a bit then have a guide take you on a "check out" dive, after that dive or two access your skills and comfort level, if you;re to eager go home, if you have respect then proceed with the education.

Its been said may times, but to put it succinctly spend time in O/W working on

1) Teamwork
2) Buoyancy
3) Position
4) Kicks

... in that order. If you are completely confident in those four critical skills on Day 1, then the rest of the week will be a piece of cake :D

I have a little to update. I have been trying to dive as often as possible since I started this thread. While that still isnt as often as I would like, I feel i have learned a good bit. I treat every dive as a training dive and try to learn with each attempt. I have tweaked my gear, gotten a drysuit, tried out several different fins, gotten my own cylinders etc.

This past weekend my first dive with my new cylinders was horrible. So bad I wanted to pack up and find something else to do for the rest of the day. When Kels and I emerged, the first thing she asked is what the hell was wrong with me. I was all over the place and couldnt figure out why. The only difference in my setup from previous was I was now diving worthington lp85s instead of the faber lp95s that I had been using. I really didnt think that is where the problem was. In the water my cylinders just felt like they were too far down, as in closer to my feet than they should be. I remember grabbing the valves and pulling them into my armpits to try and stay trim and recover my buoyancy. The problem as it turned out, was that I did not have the necks clipped in. I clipped them in and my second dive was one of my most comfortable dives to date. Its amazing how such a small issue can cause so many problems. I did end up shortening my bungees and moving my cam bands up on the cylinders a little bit.

On one of my dives this weekend, I had to perform a shutdown of one cylinder. No big deal. I has just switched regs and about 1 minute after the switch I noticed bubbles coming from the swivel. I had blown an oring where the swivel meets the 2nd stage. I saw bubbles, shut it down and we headed back to the dock.

The rest of the dives I focused on my frog kick. I had been doing a pretty sloppy job of it. Kelsey had me lay on the platform as she moved my fins in the way I needed to being doing. Also during those dives, she demonstrated running a reel to me. After she showed me what to do, I ran a square around the platform. It sucked. Just when I was starting to think that my buoyancy control was pretty good, all it took was a task to humble me. It didnt help that the platform was under me and became a crutch. The run to the first tie off had too much slack, and I had trouble keeping the reel from getting tangled. I managed to do it, but it wasnt pretty. It wasnt horrible, but could certainly be better. We surfaced, discussed it some at lunch and I made another attempt. This time was much better. I used my fingers to maintain control over the reel so that I didnt feed too much out too fast and get tangled. I ran another square patter, but did it from the outside of the platform. my buoyancy was much better. I ran the line and followed it with eyes closed from end to beginning. Success! Later we did a similar drill with a spool. it was a bit easier to keep under control than the reel.

All in all it was a productive weekend. I learned a lot and have plenty to practice before my cavern and intro class. I have signed up to take them in Marianna on dec 27-30! Then hopefully I will make it down to Ginnie for the CDF social.