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I'm planning a dive to Henleys Castle and wanted some Insite to diving it.
Been in P3 plenty of times. Did the jump to Henleys to 135 ft.
Plan on using 50% travel gas to and from the jump. Then air for the decent to Henleys.
Any insites from someone that has done the dive.
Fred
If you've been to 135 you already did the dive and saw the best part.
WJH
i did it with a stage of 32 on the way in and 50% for deco and the way out.
Bottom mix obviously depends on how deep you plan to go once you get there.
32% works fine as a travel gas to get there and there is a large rock maybe 50-70' short of the jump that works well to leave a stage with travel gas.
In my opinion, 50% would not offer much advantage in terms of deco and 50% also pushes the PO2 a bit higher than I'd like for that length of time swimming in and out to a deeper segment in the middle. And 32% is both banked and very usable in NFL for stage dives, while the logistics for 50%are a little more complicated and it is less useful over all.
The passage is low through the sand slide at about 135' and stays low and wide for maybe 50-70' before it opens back up in Henleys castle itself. That portion is easy to silt out if the team is not careful, so stay near or even on the line.
100% works fine in the cavern on the way out.
Depending on how deep you go and how long you stay, I have noted that some GF software applications have fits with the ascent and resulting deco ceiling from 135' to the jump, so you may have to add a minute or two to the ascent at around around 80-90' for planning purposes, but in practice a nice slow ascent from 135' to the jump seems to work well for the computers I have used there.
If you are going to the bottom, I'd suggest you get mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by fghray1
http://www.youtube.com/jefftindall#p/a/u/1/Mt_JE18XRkY
I did it with 18/45 backgas.
I would rethink the two stages thing if I did it again though. we were overthinking that one.
of course I'm not going back. it's not all that interesting. the room is cool and the bedding plain at 130 is kinda neato. but it's kinda meh
We dove it on air, with a stage. And left 100% in the basin for deco. We dropped the stages well before the jump down to Hendley's Castle, and had a :20-:25 deco.
Like someone else said... I wouldn't want a stage with me through that bedding plane. Especially on the way out. I still had some residual narcosis coming up from 175', and there was a little reduction in visibility from us coming in.
we dropped the stage at the sand slide or maybe the jump, don't remember, and dropped 70 gas at 80'Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Now that you mention it... I think we dropped at the sand slide. I don't recall going through that restriction with a stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
The few times I have made the dive, I use mix on the way in (18/50 or thereabouts), 50% EANx on the way out, and then finish it off with O2 for a few minutes in the basin.
the one time we did henley's proper, 32 there & back, air down, 100 for deco. however, we definitely didn't bottom it out - we only went to 150ish.
isn't there something in one of those pesky rules that we learned in the cavern class and then talked about again at ever level?
If you want to dive to the bottom do it on mix.
Nick,Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
Those rules are only for talking to landowners and chest thumping about cave diving safety to open water divers. Once you get a full cave card you're free to do stupid narcotic depths and go visual jumping to your heart's content. Have you not been to Ginnie or Peacock on a weekend recently?
Sheesh, you rich people spending $75 like it's going to save a life or something... :roll:
In all seriousness, thank you for being the first one to post something. It's a privilege to dive state owned sites, and I would hate to know that a few dollars could have prevented a death and cause a loss of site access...especially now that mix is easily available at nearly every shop in cave country.
I was trying to find a cute way of saying something, without coming off like a DB. Something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
DECLARE @END INTQuote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
SELECT @END = MaxEND
FROM AgencyStandards
WHERE
DiveType = Cave
SELECT BestMix
FROM Mix
WHERE
Depth = 60m
and END = @END;
:roll:
OH! The OTHER "DB"... gotcha
There is no reason to dive Hendley's castle to the bottom on Air - EVER.
Cheers,
Jeff
but air's cheaperQuote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
Doing the dive 10 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with my memory, or lack thereof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I think you obviously failed in that effort...your assumption that someone's memory was affected by a 'narcotic' dive and not the passage of time was entirely understandable, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
I find the narcosis at the bottom of Henley's Castle to be quite enjoyable. I'm secure enough in my experience and training to be able to handle that with no problems. My movements are more deliberate and focused and I limit the task loading to an otherwise appropriate level commensurate with the risk. Diving 50% to get back to that area sounds like the most likeliest way to cause a fatality and have the park site closed than having a seasoned diver back there on air.
After all, there were literally thousands of dives made in Eagle's Nest and other deep caves before the advent of instant tri-mix cave divers determining what constituted safety. Those old crusts managed to live through it just fine.
Well, some of them at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Factually stated, that should read: The overwhelming majority of them. OR, it could alternatively read: An infinitesimal number did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
If you'd amend a definition of "infinitesimal number" to be greater than 200 deaths with an END >100ft in various diving environments before year 2000, we'll agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
Trimix is readily available, and the cost per fill (in N FL at least) is not huge in terms of the over all cost per dive on any given trip to N FL (for a non local zip code diver at least).Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
However, a trimix cert is not cheap as despite all the posts like yours citing the public and humanitarian benefit, most instuctors seem to charge an arm and a leg for a course that is just not that complex. I guess it is a "what ever the market will bear" pricing strategy for what is regarded as a graduate level technical diving course. Worse, outside of N FL if you have to get the card offshore, you add the travel and lodging expense only to get blown out on one or more of the dives on top of the gas fill expense and the $1000-$1500 fee for the course. Personally, after 3 blown out attempts to finish the dives, I hung it up and will leave it there until I see the need for trimix on the dives I do.
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you in general but trimix is not cheap everywhere and there are some significant barriers to getting the training even among those divers who want the training. If you want more divers using trimix, making the cert itself more affordable would probably help.
I really hate the Trimix versus nitrox below 100' debate. But I do need to point out you are picking at nits and are overstating the case. Far less than the 200 deaths you cite with an END greater than 100' involved narcosis due to a lack of helium as a causative factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
For example, take the average fatality in Ginnie with an END of 101-110'. Would trimix have made a difference in a particular accident here and there? Probably. But more correctly, is the abscence of helium a causative factor in all of those accidents in that depth range? Clearly not.
I don't think it makes sense to treat END as an absolute as the effects vary by day, by diver, are dependent to some extent on the environment and vary with increasing depth. In addition, the potential for negative impact of any impairment depends on the nature and demands of the dive itself.
Personally, I am fine with doing a dive to a depth of 150' in Henleys Castle, in large part based on my prior experience on air or nitrox to those depths and based on prior experience there. That said, I would not automatically recommend it to anyone else, and I certainly know divers who have issues with narcosis at far lesser depths who would personally opt to either use trimix or not do the dive.
I question your statistics. As the poster stated above, your making an assumption that all deaths that occurred at greater than 100' in depth, could have been avoided by breathing trimix. That is completely inaccurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
FWIW - You don't have to have trimix to reduce your END. On a 100ft dive, most of us would just use 32% Nitrox.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Just for what it is worth, I think there is a big difference between 140-150ft on air and 180+ft on air. I've dipped down a bit in OW below 130 on air. I'll be damned if I ever hit 180 on air. I know people do it, but it is not worth it to me and for sure not in a cave.
Cheers & be safe!
Jeff
True. But I believe we are talking about depths where a 32% mix would be well above 1.4 ATA.Quote:
Originally Posted by icestac
Let me be the first to say that you are a moron.
I know back in the 70s one could pick a lady up at a bar and not use a rubber.
I know that back in the old days that air was all there was.
I know air is cheaper.
You are not a good steward of the cave community. Perhaps you should go do your dives somewhere that a fatality will not effect future access.
You sir ooze the strokery, and one cant fix stupid.
So in the words of GI3 I will give you a wide berth.
If your are going to call someone stupid, at least give them the courtesy of identifying them in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
some people would jump over a dollar to save a nickel...
if you can't afford a trimix class save up for it and stay shallow until you can get the good stuff. like nick said, it's not the 70s anymore.
If you have to question yourself....Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
I agree. Unfortunately, helium won't fix stupid either, but many divers, secure in the increased mental clarity and brilliance helium provides - in some cases, a presumed degree of mental clarity and brilliance they lack at the surface - go ahead and do incredibly stupid things during the dive and a fatality still results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
Helium is just a tool in the tool box. It is not a panacea for all the potential risks a diver may encounter nor is it a license to exceed one's own limits or act imprudently. In the same vein, helium is also not required to remain within ones own limits or act prudently.
nobody said it was. it doesn't cure stupid but it helps...Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
You're implications, and passivity only open the door for interpretation... therefore I will interpret your remark as it was directed at me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
First, I cannot find where you could have found enough information to make an informed decision that I am a moron. You know absolutely nothing about my diving background, how many dives I've made, what certifications I hold, or my level of expertise. The only thing you know, is that I dove to the bottom of Hendley's Castle, back in 2000, on air. This, no doubt, questions your ability to make objective observations.
Second, you find it appropriate to call someone a moron, and not identify them. That doesn't say much about your level of courage, or integrity.
See Rule 6. Drop the name calling and just discuss the issues, please.
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
always look cool?Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
That happens when you don't sign your name to your posts...Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Just curious for those saying stuff about using trimix. Do you guys really use helium in everything over 100'? Plus isn't this dive like 150 max? We teach the tec 1 level to 150' on air or nitrox.
The 100' mark got brought in when discussing fatality stats. I don't think it has much to do with the rest of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by atedeschi
The bottom of Hendley's was just over 160' when I went. I use Nitrox up to about 110'-120' at which point I prefer to start looking for mix (I typically have light mix in my bottles from old dives anyways).
My personal feeling is that there is a difference diving 150' on air in OW vs. all the way back in a cave.
Here is another wrench for those that would STILL do Hendley's Castle on air. Would you do Lower Lower Orange Grove on Air? IIRC I hit 175 at the deepest part before coming back up to do the loop.
Cheers,
Jeff
for the most part i do. if it drops a bit below 100 I'm cool with it. ginnie does that in spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by atedeschi
other than that I'm using trimix. and I'll use it shallower than 100' if I have a lot of bottles on me.
I'm pretty sure i hit 180 at the castle and 165ish at lower orange grove. dunno for sure. i dont log dives
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Did L.O.G. on air 3 weeks ago. Hit 165. Narcosis was not an issue. We paid the price in :60 of deco.
A few thoughts:
I've done deep air - 192' in Bonaire. The conditions were perfect - 82° water, 100' vis, a beautiful shipwreck (the windjammer). A seven-minute bottom time (according to two computers) felt like thirty seconds. I can only imagine what would have happened had something gone awry.
A guy on Bonaire told us why he always dived it on air: (insert thick French accent) "A dive to 200' on air is like enjoying a bottle of fine wine with good friends." Sure, but don't think you're okay to drive home afterward. You're drunk.
As far as nitrox goes, it's becoming accepted that oxygen is as narcotic as nitrogen. I've made enough dives to 100' on EAN32 that I think it's exactly as narcotic as air. Reactions that are instantaneous at 30' take a few seconds at 100'. At 150'? I'm sure much slower.
{Free advice alert - no liability assumed} If you're all that concerned about the cost of a trimix course, all the information you need to dive trimix is on the internet for free. I'd bet you'd be safer gathering this info yourself and diving trimix than taking air to Hendley's Castle. {Alert over}
air is for tires.
Oh... sorry. Should I attach my resume as well? Or how about an advertisement for my business?Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Adam Smith, MBA
CEO - Mix is for Sissies, Inc.
Call 800-NARCOSIS, for all your deep air diving needs.
I agree it helps an individual diver, but that's only part of the potential problem in setting solid END limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
For example lets take the "average" cave diver has an "average" IQ. The mean IQ is 100 and the standard deviation for most IQ scores is about 15 points, so the "average" range for IQ is 85 to 115 and about 2/3rds of the population will fall within that range - with half of them being below 100 and half of them being above 100, but all of them considered (broadly) to be of "average" intelligence.
The point being a diver on the low end of that range is potentially 30 points behind a diver at the upper end of that range in terms of overall cognitive functioning even before we descend. Various subtest scores involving such things as spatial relations or numeric operations will have similar variation so the total picture is a bit more complicated, but you get the idea.
Do we want to have a different END based on surface cognitive functioning? Of course not - as the average diver probably does not know where they fall in temrs of general IQ let alone in subtest performance. But the first point is that most divers potentially have the ability to make informed decisions about the depth and conditions at which the really need a reduction in narcosis to function effectively and that makes more sense than relying on a flat 100' END.
The second point is that if a diver happens to be one with an 85 IQ, he or she is already challenged at the start of the dive and while helium might help limit the additional impiarment that results, it may not help him or her enough to "catch up" at the 100-150' depths we are talking about here.
The concern is what happens when the use of helium breeds over confidence because the person is using helium. At best, they are no better than they are on their best day at 10' and for some, that is just not all that great.
Congratulations. I am glad you made it back safely. I would choose not to do that dive with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
It is courtesy to introduce yourself so you don't look like a troll when making controversial comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
All the best,
Jeff
:roll: Sorry, I like to know who I'm talking to, even on a forum. Didn't realize it would offend you.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
I see your point, but it just confuses me on how someone goes from bringing a pony bottle to do the grand traverse, to being OK diving to 150ft on air across the the slough.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAa Aquamaster
It had better be a BIG bottle (or very few friends)!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slüdge
As a police officer I have had the curious experience of drinking with others and measuring blood alcohol levels. It is amazing how different people respond to similar amounts of consumption.
My point is that what is acceptable (safe) behavior for one physiology may not be for another. I have no problem acting more conservatively than necessary (so as not to lead one astray...) but it doesn't mean that I could not have responsibly pushed the limits a bit farther and remained well within my own established guidelines of safety.
Jeff,Quote:
Originally Posted by icestac
In all fairness, I wouldn't have asked you to make that dive with me. I don't know you, or your diving abilities. But you have now cleared up any confusion... just in case I had some reason in the future, to ask you to dive.
As for introductions, I first created a profile on this forum back in 2000. I took several years off to focus on "dry", and vertical caving, and unfortunately didn't do a lot of diving. (I forgot my old log-in info, and created a new name.)
However, I am reminded one reason why it was so easy to allow another realm of caving take precedent of my time... it's the people involved in the sport. Sure, there are super ego's in every facet of caving. But the relative number of them in cave diving is quite high. And one thing that I will never understand is why some cave divers eagerly say the way you choose to dive is "wrong" or "stupid"... and then try to cloak those comments as concerns for your safety, or for the threat of losing site access.
I truly wish more people in the cave diving community would be more open, and take the mindset of what works for some people, might not work for others. This concept is much more apparent in the "dry" caving community. And I recall similar debates years ago, between different styles of equipment configuration, and certification agencies. But at the end of the day, we are all cavers who choose to dive with certain people, using specific criteria, within our level of comfort. There is no need to call someone a moron because you don't agree with what they practice.
For some reason I thought the frequency of over-inflated ego's had declined since the late 90's. How I was mistaken.
Adam
None taken! Thanks for helping me out with the forum etiquette.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Excellent point! Hard and fast numbers don't apply to the human body in most cases (that 98.6F thing still puzzles me!). One person can have a single drink and be obviously impaired, while another with very similar phyiscal characteristics would not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by AB8CD
The same happens with narcosis. I've seen big, strong, competent divers that were plumb loopy at ENDs of 80 (granted it was in a dark, soupy mess). I've watched others I wouldn't have believed pass "competency" tests with ease at much deeper ENDs.
Guidelines are a great starting point, but please listen to your body and "gut", and be self-aware. If it don't feel right, chances are it's not. Don't let ego pressure you into an END that isn't right for you, regardless of what the "standard" is. And don't feel compelled to force others to adhere to your beliefs on what's the "right" END. Their MMV ;)
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
You like to keep misrepresenting the facts with that example.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
I guess, by your comments, I should just cave to peer and/or ego pressure and not take a stage on my next traverse with a 2 person team from P1 to OG.
I suppose it would save me the difficulty of dealing with people who seem to feel threatened by differing opinons and who then persist in calling it a "pony bottle" for the sole purpose of taking a cheap shot to discredit my opinions.
How about I just say you are obviously a way better diver than I could ever hope to be and we leave it at that so your own ego can go unruffled.
I hesitate to post anything here but feel compelled to.
I dove Henley's Castle once on air and I'll never do it again.
This post can also be my answer for the other thread asking for the worst thing to happen while cave diving.
Gene Page
well now i have to know :DQuote:
Originally Posted by WEPIV
I'll let others provide the details if they care to (or just do a back search either here or on TDS for it).
As I said, I’m hesitant to even bring it up but the more I read this thread the more I felt like I should with the hope that people dive within their limits -- and within the basic safety rules of cave diving.
Were u the group of divers with different mixes and mixes to rich for the depth and someone went farther then they were suppose to?
If you wish to dive deep air stick to wreck diving. Sure maybe you can handle the narcosis. Hey I have only had a few drinks I am fine to drive.
I guess you folks who advocate deep air can justify it in your own mind. Do you also dive half plus 200? Do you carry any backup lights? Do you run a contentious guide line? I think the community has proven that diving deep on air is not safe, if you think you are better than everyone else great. But I think deep air diving is foolish and that you are exercising poor judgement doing so. And while you are at it you should also go to a MADD Forum and advocate driving drunk.
When did 150 become deep air? We still do rec courses for deep courses to 130 on air or nitrox. We still do tec 1 courses to 150 on air and ccr mod 1 courses to 140 on air dil.
Just curious I dnt have a battle in this fight one way or the other. If I need trimix for a dive I'll use it but I dnt use it cause someone tells me to. Also if I'm somewhere and I don't have the ideal gases but can make the dive work and I'm comfortable I'll do it.
ALWAYS!Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
When it became deeper than 130.Quote:
Originally Posted by atedeschi
http://www.dangerousminds.net/images...419_thumb.jpegQuote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
I've hit 180+ in Hendley's. And just because some agencies teach 150' on air doesn't make it right. One agency I know of has a course that teaches air to 240'.Quote:
Originally Posted by atedeschi
Well then, 240ft is within standards, it's safe!Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
I would never challenge your skill, you can dive intoxicated, I can't dive that way because I'm not that awesome. I bet you'd make a great drunk driver...but of course, you'd wear 2 seat belts, and when I asked you why you don't just wear one and drive sober, you'd attempt to mock me. I'm the buzz kill who doesn't see the point to having a beer if I'm driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
** Edit, here's a smiley so the mods don't delete my post ;)
My favorite post of the thread:
I like this one a lot. Diving for the buzz?Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorCaver
There is so much wrong with deep air (and I can't find one single advantage other than "but its cheaper!!"), there really isn't a reason to do it. ESPECIALLY in a cave, at 180ft deep.
To the OP, you'll have a better dive (clear head, good memories, etc) if you wait a little, save up and take a good trimix class from a good instructor. The whole point of diving is to have a fun, safe time and see the sights. No reason to risk it unnecessarily. Mix is easy to get, not all that expansive, and might make the difference if you have an issue at depth.
This is you!Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
There seems to be some kind of malapropism virus in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by PfcAJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
And here is a bunny stealing a cookie, because I see no point to all of this useless quibbling .
http://drzaius.ics.uci.edu/blogs/set...okie-bunny.jpg
Same egos,just inflated with helium now :-) :-) :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Air is abandoned even for this in some places.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteHedded
Rn I believe 240 is alil overboard but I see no issue of doing 150' dives on air. But as it was stated before everyone is alil different. To be honest I would prob be on air for this dive but if it does drop deeper then that I would throw some helium in. It all depends on the dive.
I do findit interesting that some of the well respected divers in thecommunity do some of the things people get flamed online for but they do it because that's what's avaible in the area there at or etc. But they are not pushing a company or agency.
Do what works and what you are comfortable with because no matter wat someone out there willake a comment or be a arm chair quaterback.
The bunny has obviously been drinking from the paper cup which led to irresponsible criminal behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
I left that cookie there on purpose. I can't believe some f'ing bunny came along and took it. That could have killed me/us.Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
Chris
How did the bunny get in the cave? Lucky it didn't start chewing up our guidelines :D
I suspect we could all agree that seeing bunnies in the cave is an indicator of an excesssive END.
Didn't someone post something about a pirates skull at the bottom of the breakdown in L.O.G.? Perhaps that should be replaced with a bunny.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Not if they're made of cheese! (http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2..._of_cheese.php)Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
Not only did this furry bastard pull my cookies out out Little river he took my deco bottle and when I finally got out he was chatting my girl up at the truck....Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG-1
see, if your girl was a cave diver, she'd be with you & safe from cheesy, cookie-y lines from bunnies.
I know I'm narced at 150. I'm narced at 130. My personal limit for air is 120, but that's just me. The big wake up for me was having done Lower Lower OG on air the first time and then going back and doing it on helium. It was a much different cave on helium!Quote:
Originally Posted by atedeschi
I'll support that. I do generally use trimix for dives greater that 150', but honestly I can't say that I've ever knowingly experienced nitrogen narcosis in the years I've been diving air.Quote:
Originally Posted by sskasser
It's one thing, in my opinion, to do a deep (140 to 200 ffw) OPEN water dive on air. It's quite different (again in my opinion) to do a deep air dive in a cave or wreck.
I know it's been done before and continues to be done in some cases but it's not for me. I want a clear head in a cave or wreck diving past 130.
On the other hand, and as I have mentioned before, since I don't drink alcohol anymore I certainly do enjoy an occasional deep air open water dive.... (Which for me does not exceed 200 ffw.)
I don't. But other people seem to know I am. That's what worries me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RN
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudboy55
The first time I realized I was just a little narced was my 2nd dive in Blue Spring, Orange City. I was only 80' but the flow was pretty significant and it was work to get there. The scary part was I had felt the same way earlier in the day during my 1st dive there but didn't know what it was. I did the Belize Blue Hole on air and descended into the cavern at 140'+. I knew I was narced there and it wasn't a pleasant feeling. At 80' it was scary to think I was narced without realizing it and how I would have reacted to something in that mental condition. I fully realize that I'm likely a little narced during every dive I do in JB but I've learned to deal with it. I know I'm a little narced at 120' but it's also something I can deal with because I realize it and am more attentive. My wife gets narced at 90'. In JB she deals with it. In systems she's not as familiar with she needs a little bit of helium to allow her to feel comfortable enough to do the dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by jj1987
Everyone is different. Everyone has different limits. I do think that 150' on air is too deep for anyone. When the $h!t hits the fan, can you deal with it at 150' on air efficiently enough to make it a non-issue? I'm not so sure I would be able to.
It's difficult to look at it in such a black and white manner as for me there is more to it than just being 1000-2000' ft back in a cave.Quote:
Originally Posted by WEPIV
For exmaple, the line to Henely's castle is fairly straight forward, there is basically no flow and no navigational decisions made below the jump at a depth of about 60'. The biggest challenge is exiting through the low spot at 135'. The big risk there is potentially low viz if it a) got stirred up on the way in, or b) if you are trailing an a team mate is stirring it up on the way out, and that is a risk that cave divers train to manage from Cavern class forward.
In short it is deep, but the potential surprises are limited and the demands should be manageabld with the degree of narcosis encountered. And if not the diver will (or should) realize it up front.
On the other hand, on an offshore wreck dive, both the viz and the current can vary and can change with little or no warning. In some areas not only the speed of the current can change, but also the direction - with for example a 180 degree change in direction in a few minutes in areas affected by tidal flow. So...there is potentially a need for constant evalutaion and re-assessment of the conditions and the potential to re-adjust or modify the dive plan on the fly - decisions that you do not want to make while narc'd.
A common OW wreck dive accident scenario is where a diver swims away from the ascent line either upcurrent or down current in no current or very light current then finds the current has switched direction or increased to the point he or she cannot reach the ascent line. This becomes a major issue either because the deco gas was dropped near the anchor line, or due to the lack of an upline and the potential to drift out of sight down current during a free swimming deco (on the deco gas if the diver kept it on them, or on back gas if the diver did not).
Narcosis then impairs the diver's judgment and they do something stupid - like using all the back gas reserve they could have used for deco in the effort to try to get upcurrent to the deco gas or ascent line, effectively removing the option of a longer deco on back gas with or without an upline. The end result is a near OOG ascent a lots of missed deco and a serious DCS hit or AGE.
This type of bad decision is likely in that narcosis often causes a diver to experience perceptual narrowing and focus on resolving the immediate problem - getting to the ascent line, even when that no longer makes any sense.
In that regard, I think the risks of going to 150' on air or 25% nitrox in Henleys are potentially far less than the risks of a 150' dive on air or 25% on an offshore wreck in places where the viz or current may create a need to amend the dive plan and/or abort the dive if conditions are not what was expected.
I think you have misinterpreted my remarks. I never intended to imply I was a "better" diver, because I dove air. I simply responded to the question that the original poster asked, then I was flamed from the divers that didn't agree with meQuote:
Originally Posted by Caver95
But just to be explicitly clear.... I didn't dive air to 170' because I think I'm a better diver and don't need mix, or that it's tied to some mentality of being a bad ass. I made that dive on air, because I knew my limits, and my partners limits. And we executed a dive that we were both comfortable with.
Honestly, I could care less what people on this board think about me. But I do take it personal when someone implies that I do dives to pump my ego. It's incorrect, and paints an inaccurate description of my personality. And if you knew me, you would agree.
I did a 225' cave dive which was a clean up dive just to pickup a bottom mix bottle, scooter, and the bailout bottles along the way.
My END for the dive was 130'.
I was really happy at 225' when Andrew A. swam over and handed my scooter to me because I was buzzed out of my mind and probably would have never remembered where I left it. (Insert The scooter was 10' away from me on the upstream line)
Do what works for you.
END of 100' works for me on mission based dives where high degree of concentration is required.
Paul H. does dives to 180-200 on air. He has 40 years of cave diving experience and probably performs actions instinctively. I stopped at 130' at the Pit in Mexico.
Different things work for different people do what works for you.
Good Luck
This
is contradicted by thisQuote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Okay, not really. You probably meant that you could not care less, though. In which case it would be contradictory.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
Chris
I was never good in english Class either.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmalinowski
You are correct. I should have included the word "not" in that phrase. Thanks for taking the time to correct my grammar. I have a tendency to be rather lazy on online forums, and always fight the urge to use acronyms in place of phrases, i.e., OMFG or WOPR. I'll try to do better next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmalinowski
However, even after ur rather witty correction, I still fail 2 C the contradiction.
I take it personally when someone implies something about my ego. This implication, does not have to be from this discussion board to offend me. In other words, it's a generality. Therefore, if you are pumping my gas (outdated comparison, but you get the picture), and imply something about my ego, I would take it personally. The fact that the person who implied this, is a member of the Cave Diver's Forum, is irrelevant and coincidental.
In addition, please try to understand the context that these phrases we're written in. My quote regarding me not caring about what people on this board think was driven by the negativity I received after my initial posting on this thread, and was directed to those who made ignorant comments about me and my diving decisions.
Mmmm WOPR....Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
http://4pack.files.wordpress.com/201...opper-sign.jpg
I obviously have no idea what that means?...
All I wanted was so insight to Hendleys and it turns into this. Makes me to NOT want ask ask any future questions. My question was answered in the first page and answered well. The rest of this thread belongs in the history books never to be read again.
Shall we play a game?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuPrBuGmAn
http://www.google.com/m/url?cd=1&ct=...KLK9gZOgbqTHyQ
Dude, you got good answers to your question, and some bonus philosophy. Why deny the cyberdivers their fun as well? They amuse us.Quote:
Originally Posted by fghray1
WJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by icestac
And I always liked Tic-Tac-Toe... or was it, Tic-Tac-Dough?
The contradiction is that in one statement you don't care and in the next you do. I can understand if you care. If someone says something about you in any sort of public theater (forum, gas station, Burger King, etc), you--all of us actually--probably care to some extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarsticGator
I don't care whether you do care. All I was saying is that the statement contradict one another.
And it wasn't a grammar correction. I believe your grammar was just fine. Just a missing word and we all make that mistake at times. I was bored so I figured I'd post. Most of my posts are worthless drivel anyway, so it fit nicely into this thread.
Now I just want some flame broiled goodness--a #2 with everything... mmmm....
Chris
Damn... and I love '80s movies. Seen the movie, love it, but didn't remember :(Quote:
Originally Posted by icestac
Wonder how many people read this thread all the way to the end and then became pissed because they lost 15 minutes of their life they will never get back?
I know I would call me stupid if I were some of you guys...cause I did read it (but I skipped pages 7-9).
Or does that just make me a douche?
Bob
Ya, But it's like hearing the same joke over and over and over and over and over and over and it wasn't funny the first timeQuote:
Originally Posted by WJH
There is some benefit to the philosophical discussions, but that usually degenerates into juvenile BS and name calling.Quote:
Originally Posted by WJH
When that happens, they only amuse some of us. The rest of us just get annoyed. I was in the 8th grade once and once was enough.
Fred is right that it is enough to make you think about posting a new thread, but then you think better of it and just don't because you know where it will go.
I agree. And I regret getting pulled into the fray, and keeping the back and forth going. In hindsight, I should have let the negative remarks roll of my back. forum rookie mistake I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Aquamaster
I do think this forum is a great place to share ideas and experiences. And if my remarks have made anyone feel that they shouldnt post on this forum, I offer my apologies.
safe diving,
adam
If anyone thinks a thread is straying off the original subject, report it to a moderator. We can split out the hijack, and move it to the Fill Station. I know it sometimes the moderators that do the hijacking, but they will fix it, if you say something.
I was out of town when this thread started, or I would have fixed it.