Forum for private cave discussion

[Jim Wyatt]

Something that has been discussed,is we are discussing things that for the lay public could be considered a violation of rules,and could upset landowners who view this forum,and defy their trust. Perhaps we need a medium where we can discuss things where we know the only audience will be certified cave/cavern divers. The CDF has many private forums,and perhaps one can be started for this purpose.

You got my vote. Good idea!!

[aainslie]

I hope you checked with Ken to make sure this is a scientific poll!

[Ken Hill]

Kelly,
In an earlier post on another thread I suggested that the moderators manage a closed forum where the entrant states their name, training level, agency, number of dives and Instructor. This will settle the question of “who” is posting theories and “who” is posting from learned and acquired experience. If someone runs off at the mouth the moderators can step in and perhaps their old instructor can apply some old fashion mentoring. In a perfect world cavern divers could only pose questions and full cave divers could pose or answer.

Years ago (and there are others who have been around longer than I have) discussions such as these took place and the peer review was instantaneous and you knew who was speaking. I recall one CDS workshop when Tom Morris, Woody Jasper and Lamar Hires sat on the edge of the stage and talked to the audience, no egos, words of wisdom and pure cave diving chat for a couple of hours. That was learning at its best.

Now Andrew feels I have an axe to grind with him. I don’t. He may have the time to sit by a keyboard and he may understand some things about diving but he does not seem to understand what it took to get the sites we have. We negotiated, purchased, opened and expanded the rights to dive in Florida. It took years of meetings with owners, state and local officials, biologists and law enforcement. It took committees comprised of reps from the CDS, NACD, IANTD, TDI and GUE, the major training agencies all with the same policies and rules for their trainees. These rules and policies were the cornerstone of each and every negotiation.

For the most part recreational cave diving has been safe and for the most part accidents other than health maladies are traced directly to violation of one of the basic rules or diving practices beyond any training level or equipment design. This results in a recovery, often hazardous to the IUCRR diver who is charged not only with the recovery but with observing and recording evidence and preparing a written report for law enforcement use. The IUCRR “speaks for the dead” through the eyes and observations of its recovery divers. The report is prepared solely for law enforcement and is a legal document that may be used in either criminal or civil inquiry. If any glaring departure from the rules of accident analysis is observed the pertinent information is passed to the training directors of the CDS and the NACD with the hopes it will make cave diving safer.

I say go for it. /Ken

[Arctic Mike]

I don't believe a private forum is necessary but I do like Ken's suggestion of stating your certifications, experience, etc. I looked at the my User CP and don't see an area specifically for this. Perhaps making an area for this information mandatory for Users would be a simple way to go?

[Cali Knucklehead]

Something that has been discussed,is we are discussing things that for the lay public could be considered a violation of rules,and could upset landowners who view this forum,and defy their trust. Perhaps we need a medium where we can discuss things where we know the only audience will be certified cave/cavern divers. The CDF has many private forums,and perhaps one can be started for this purpose.

I like the idea Kelly. We do the same thing on our local board for trimix discussions. I don't want to be responsible for someone seeing a deco profile online and "trying" it out on their own. At the same time, I don't want a cavern diver (no offense cavern divers - we were all there at one time in our cave diving lives) to read that 33% of full caver divers don't run primaries or jumps and then think that running lines is a waste. These discussions belong in a place where all the parties completely understand the risks of their actions.

Bruce

[wendellnope]

Colleagues,

I have spent a number of hours contemplating how to articulate some meaningful input on this issue. Now I'm ready. I suggest that it is extraordinarily risky to use the internet, a CDF Public Forum, or even a CDF Private Forum as the vehicle for this controversial issue. An issue such as this is best reviewed/debated/resolved (1)by those truly competent to offer input on the question, (2)in a non-internet forum environment where their opinions are exchanged/reviewed ONLY by peers and NOT novices, NOT landowners, and NOT lurking Plaintiff's attorneys. First, it is very likely that novices will read the commentaries (regarding personal diving practices) from well-known individuals ... individuals who are in a (real OR imagined) "Position of Trust" in the in the Cave Diving subculture and then the novice may desire to prematurely internalize any perceived deviations from the entry-level Full Cave Diver diving standards. Second, it is very likely that landowners may perceive the diversity in opinions among the "post-ers" negatively and over-react in order to protect their own interests. This over-reaction could include closing caves, restricting access, or even super-stringent land-owner-imposed diving standards. Also, it is very likely that Plaintiff's attorneys who are presently preparing litigation against Cave Divers, Instructors, or Agencies are being educated right now beyond their wildest dreams ... not to mention future cases in which the attorneys may issue a subpoena duces tecum to Yahoo for a text copy of all the Public & Private Forums relating to this issue. The prudent "well-known" Cave Diver, Instructor, etc. should not disclose nor discuss his/her non-standard "personal diving practices" over the internet.

To clarify, I am not saying that a review or debate on this issue is a bad thing. I am only saying it is BAD and RISKY and UNWISE to do so over the internet.

Since most of y'all don't even know me, I'll offer some validation to my declarations. I have been a law enforcement officer all my adult life, a full-time Police Academy Instructor* for the last 19 years, a State Police Dive Team* trainer for the last 7 years, recovered 5 drowning victims to-date, and am an IUCRR Diver*. My secondary employment is legal consulting in criminal/civil litigations. If you do not trust what I've said, ask Mr. Craig Jenni ... whom I suspect some of y'all use as a legal advisor.

Wendell Nope
www.wendellnope.com/scuba3.htm web

*I do not represent my personal opinion(s) as being an official position(s) of this entity.

[Kelly Jessop]

Wendell I appreciate your comments,and they are very valid. Before the internet there was picnic table pontificating where these ideas would be expressed in a small forum. Unfortunately the internet has opened the Pandora's box for easy communication,the lid will never be closed. To encourage certain things not be posted out of sensitivies will involve a universal acceptance, which will be nearly impossible,plus if people don't like the rules of this forum,then there are somany others to chose from. I am sure that Craig Jenni could look through years of discussions here and other forums,and groan loudly. Hence,open commincation on a forum can't be stopped,but at least have an avenue where we know we have cave divers talking with cave divers,and only cave diver lurking in the background.

[Ben M]

I'm against the idea of the private forum, but if it encourages more discussion I would accept it.

I've browsed the current forum rules and see nothing against having these types of discussions. If I've missed it please point it out. I've seen several caution, urge against it, or even state it is against the rules in an effort to quiet others. Since the posts generally remain, I have to assume there is no rule. Several of these individuals cautioning against have great the experience and credentials to support their claims and some others do not. There are good reasons not to have those discussions, but there are also good reasons to have them.

As has been stated, the cave diving community has grown. The problem with the picnic table chats and such is these methods do not reach the community at large anymore (if ever). I will not be reached in these methods. I avoid crowed dive sites. Passing another dive team in the water is rare for me, because of where and when I generally choose to dive. I am sure I am not alone in this. While I am not generally vocal, the internet gives me a place to read and participate. Even when not participating the posts cause me to at least think about these topics.

I love Andrew's posts. Even when I completely disagree, it makes me think about the way I dive. Sometimes, I make adjustments and other times I don't. None of the expert groups has that effect on me. As a cave diver or even an open water diver, we know we are entering a hostile environment. This risk of not returning is always there. The only way to mitigate that one completely is not go in the first place. It is human nature to question things. There are many experts here that choose not to post in a meaningful way. The reasons for not posting are many (belief that it shouldn't be on the internet, commercial conflict of interest, previous flame wars, cave politics, etc.) , but the simple fact is their experience doesn't reach the community at large. Cave training lasts but a few days. Learning is continuous and it needs a number of avenues to reach the population.

Ben Martinez

Cave certified since 2000
Cave class- NSS-CDS - Pat Watson
Cave 1 Class - GUE - Tamara Kendell

[phillip1]

I didn't say opening sentence, I said opening statement. The second sentence clearly shows intent to hide the discussion from the people mentioned in the first sentence. Sheesh.

And it is naive to think that landowners will be cool with this.

Furthermore I view the discussions that i ahve started as being in the interest of MORE, not LESS safety. Hence, I'm not even sure why you think it's a good idea to hide the public appearance that we take our sport seriously enough that we discuss safety issues openly and publicly.

let me point out another thing. How are you going to check peoples' credentials? And how many people, as a result, will never find the forum? Especially new divers in the future?

Sounds like a "good old boy's" club to me.

The problem is when the general public discovers through a poll scientific or not, that over 50% of divers do not follow a basic cave diving safety principle.
I think that all involved in that discussion so far are certified cave divers (I may be wrong) and that right or wrong they feel that they're experience allows them to modify/change such rules in they're diving practices.
The general public should not read such stuff as they will draw mostly negative conclusions from such discussions, if I were not into cave diving and read all those posts, I would conclude that most cave divers knowingly disregard basic established safety standards and that they are a bunch of fearless daredevils.
For sensitive subjects like that I definitely think it should be private.
In my experience (in the DR) when people see you go in a cave they think you are insane and have a less than 50% chance of getting out. Anytime you speak about cave diving they see it as a daredevil, death defying sport, now in addition to an opinion like that, if those same people were to read posts between cave divers about how they don't follow this rule or that rule is "stupid" etc.. it will only reinforce that view.
I think it is super important to discuss safety standards and what could be done to improve those standards, that discussion should never stop as it is the basis for improving safety, but I think it is an "insiders" subject and should not be viewed by anyone else than certified cave divers.
I say certified because if a cavern certified diver were to read such stuff he or she might think "hey those experienced guys are doing it that way, maybe I should..." and they could be negatively influenced, for nothing more than just reading about it.
Obviously if a rule is modified or improved and made to be safer, or if a new safety guideline is found to be necessary, make those new rules public asap, but it is the actual "building" so to speak, of the rules that should be kept private.
Just my opinion as sometimes here (DR) we are walking on eggshells when it comes to getting permission to dive.

[mpoucher]

I don't think you need a private forum. First thing that will happen is things will start getting moved into it when deemed "controversial" , so you will lose a lot of discussion on the general board. Second, I agree with the previous statement that landowners will view it as a negative and begin to wonder what we are really up to.

Last, we have been predicting escalating accidents, destruction of caves, and the demise of the sport as we know it since the mid 90's when cave diving began being discussed on the internet. None of it has happened yet.

Cave diving is safer now than it has ever been and most of the discussions I see here lean towards safety and conservatism. Most cave divers are safe and conservative by nature - that's what draws them to it, but you will always have those that aren't, as with any sport. That's why we have vehicle accidents, hunting accidents, boating accidents, skiing accidents, etc. etc that far surpass anything in cave diving.