Death at P1 because of not running a line to OW?

[Marc Bryan]

I did not know what to heck to do with one line in P1 though. It was laid like a humongous Z. It was like someone first thought to go to Pothole side starting the line in OW from the Peanut side, then in the end changed their mind and zagged over to Peanut line anyway.

This happens when people's plan is to enter and exit on one tunnel, but think that in an emergency they may be closer to exiting on the other, and want a continuous line to o/w off of both main lines.

[alias]

This happens when people's plan is to enter and exit on one tunnel, but think that in an emergency they may be closer to exiting on the other, and want a continuous line to o/w off of both main lines.

Oh okay. You would zag the line in proximity of the other gold line but not loop your reel into it physically? The reel line was not tied into both lines, it just swooped towards the other line, then went for the other instead. I can see that you'd hit the flat part of the Z fairly easily coming off the line where the reel was not but considering it was P1 one has to ask what did that volume of line really add...

[Marc Bryan]

Nope. The situation I described tied the reel into both gold lines, zig zagging.

[Gary]

I think you are twisting the message a bit. I am talking about giving the evil eye to someone who might not be perfect but wants to run their own line in places that someone else thinks it’s futile.

One could interpret that quite negatively on a bad day.

It is good to "always run a line". I completely support someone choosing to do so BUT running 6 lines through a restriction can be dangerous also.

People running so many lines into Devil's that the lines themselves become a danger is actually a pet peeve of mine. Often when Devil's is extremely crowded the Spring's management places a line in and places a slate indicating it is a "temporary permanent line".

If there is a temporary permanent line in place to allow more divers to enter the spring without creating a mess of many lines running through a limited thoroughfare. If it is not crowded and another line can be added without interfering with others it is fine to run a line in.

However, running a line in interfering and inconveniencing others is not "futility" it is DANGEROUS. "maintain a continuous guideline to open water" does not mean you can "always run a line" even if doing so violates proper line protocol and/or endangers or inconveniences others.


"Always running a line" does not relieve one of the responsibility to do so correctly. The actual rule is "maintain a continuous guideline to open water". I'm not sure that running a 7th line where several well run lines in good condition are already in place is required.

If one feels uncomfortable not having a line specifically run by themselves but running an additional line poses a danger to others there are other choices:
Come back later when it is less busy.
Use another entrance to the system.
Visit another cave system.organize with another group about sharing their line.

[alias]

However, running a line in interfering and inconveniencing others is not "futility" it is DANGEROUS. "maintain a continuous guideline to open water" does not mean you can "always run a line" even if doing so violates proper line protocol and/or endangers or inconveniences others. .

I think you need to reread about the futility.

"Always running a line" does not relieve one of the responsibility to do so correctly. The actual rule is "maintain a continuous guideline to open water". I'm not sure that running a 7th line where several well run lines in good condition are already in place is required. .

I don’t understand the automatic assumption that the n:th reeler would try to do a shoddy job. I actually want to put my own reel in because A) I want the practice, B) How on earth do I know those 6 reels are going to be in place when I come out if I have not talked to the guys who were already in water when I arrived? It does not matter how great the other lines are in if they aren’t going to be there when I need them. Given that I am doing intro dives, most likely at least one of them would be there but if I can’t confirm, it’s a no go for me.

And still, it’s not just that “I want my own reel in “, I want to learn how not to be an impediment to others and practice every chance I get. Don’t worry, I avoid Ginnie on busy days like plague. Even on slow days the entrance seems to get pretty line-y. I sure hope they give refunds if the attitude is to “come back another day if it’s too busy” or I’ll be turned away pretty soon.

[Gary]

I'm not saying "don't run a line". I'm saying that "always have a continuous guideline" and "always running a line" doesn't justify ignoring standard line protocols.

If you run a 7th line in thru the hole you are responsable for making sure it doesn't interfere with other divers or with other teams pulling their lines out, etc. Depending on how the other lines are run into the hole already that could be next to impossiable.

If it is already a dangerous mess adding one more line "safely" may not posiable and isn't justified by wanting to have your own reel also.

It is not at all uncommon to have a temporary permanant line already installed and then 5 other lines run in there by people who just "want to have their own line also" - ignoring the fact that they are creating a dangerous mess.

[Rich]

I haven't read through all of this but hopefully people are still teaching sharing primary reels, at least among non-students. That's a great way to avoid a lot of lines run into the entrance, just by having a simple conversation in the parking lot and another good reason to be friendly and courteous at dive sites, which also seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[skip]

rich, sounds like an article for the journal.....? I don't get to cave country as much as I used to, but I always used to find people very courteous and friendly in the parking lot. i'll be back in a week, hope things haven't become discourteous and unfriendly during my absence! in any case I can promise one friendly face in the parking lot (unless michael poucher works me too hard!).

-skip

[RN]

Sharing reels has been discussed. The issue is when you get there and all 6 teams are already in the cave and you're part of the 7th team.

As for Devil's, I realize it's used for training, but so is P1 and classes still run reels back to the signs there, so why not extend the gold line at Devil's to the edge of the OW area in the Ear? Classes could still run primaries there for practice, but divers not in class wouldn't have to spider web the ear with their own lines.

[amphipod06]

so, remind me again what was the original question in this thread?????

Dive safe,

Celia, donning the Nomex....