DPV Diver

[Rhino]

Glad that I can entertain you,but the OP question was, "How often do you scooter?", and even makes a reference to justify the cost. Good question, why invest megabucks in a something that will collect dust and take up floor space.

Echoing Victor, and the practice of a buddy of mine, you don't absolutely have to buy a scooter to make a scooter class worthwhile or enjoy benefits of scootering. Frankly, I never thought to ask my buddy whether he thought his class was worthwhile. He just seems glad to take any opportunity to rent, even for just one dive, like the river cave we scootered to last time.

[floridabob]

Glad that I can entertain you,but the OP question was, "How often do you scooter?", and even makes a reference to justify the cost. Good question, why invest megabucks in a something that will collect dust and take up floor space.

You almost always make me laugh out-loud.

I use my scooter with a purpose quite regularly. Both of them. I am not the one that has invested unwisely....which was part of my guffaw. The other part was the premise of your predive thought "I cant wait to task my ability and pick the optimum route with which to count these crayfish in an otherwise inaccessible system..."

Yep. Funny. Not a personal attack, just what bounced into my head.

Oops. I have my retirement squandered away into dive gear. That seems the epitome of unwise. But not unused, at least.

There are dives that a scooter is an absolute must, not just a tool to make the dive less taxing.

To each his own,
Bob

[aquanut...]

Yes worth it. Take a class too. There is a lot you will learn that you didn't even know you didn't know.


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[ARY]

I noticed that there is more difference in how instructors teach scooter team protocols than differences found in base cave diving classes especially if it involves multi and staged penetration. I would suggest, if you can, then take class with your future buddies and the same instructor. There is more problems with non-coordinated DPV buddies than with swimming full cave random teams. It is nice to have your own DPV at the time of class just because you can immediately strengthen your new skills with some runtime but it is fun to learn even on a rental rig. Instructor usually provides DPV for the class anyway. If you get your own DPV before the class you may start using it using advice of other DPV cavers but you have to deal with land owners requiring c-cards, for Florida it is more reasonable to take the class because most popular scootering caves are hard to sneak without a card.

[Nitrogenius]

Yes, it enables dives that could not be done otherwise.

Hi Bob,


would you care to elaborate a little bit on that?
As I have been taught you would have to be able to safely finnish a dive with the scooter not working, no matter what. This means you have to bring gas with reserve to exit + enough deco gas to safely exit with the extended time spent at depth..
So the only advantage I can see is the savings of bottom time and thus a slighter less deco obligation on the way into the cave..
Or am I overseeing something here?


Regards,
Frank

[nakatomi]

Frank, maybe this example helps?

When scootering at Jackson Blue, I can get to at least about 3300' (Source Nouveau jump) using just thirds on one stage.
If max penetration for that dive would be 4000', at 50fpm one would need 4000/50=80 minutes to swim out
Assuming a SAC rate of 0.5, 80 minutes x 0.5 x 3.7 ATM, one would require 148 cuft of gas to swim out.

Two cave filled 95s contain 259cuft of gas, add to that 53cuft left in the stage tank used to scooter in.
That gives you 312 cuft to work with, with 148 required to swim out.
I would be comfortable to have at least 1.5 times what I need to swim out, should the scooter fail.
So 222cuft would be my rock bottom turn pressure, which would equate to 3080psi in the 95s.
That would leave 3080psi in the main tanks, plus 2000psi in the stage to swim out.

If all goes well, I would then use 600psi in each LP95 (or 37cuft of gas) to swim to somewhere around 4000 and check out the passages.
With a SAC rate of 0.5, that would provide gas for a tour of 37 / 0.5 / 3.7 = 20 minutes.

Bringing a second stage or bigger main tanks, would greatly increase the time you have back in the cave. You could easily turn 20 minutes into 50 or 60 minutes.

To compare that to swimming, using one stage and LP95's, getting to the stop light (4th T) which is at around 2300' or 2400' on thirds would about as far as I would expect to swim right now.

[Kelly Jessop]

The other part was the premise of your predive thought "I cant wait to task my ability and pick the optimum route with which to count these crayfish in an otherwise inaccessible system..."

I can appreciate your rationale. Do I like to scooter, yeah it can be fun,just like I enjoy taking my motorcycle for a spin. Since a majority of my diving is research based, and looking at species, carrying an oversized food processor blades near imperiled species is a little counter intuitive.

[Jay]

OK, here is a little more info from my perspective since some hardliners are weighing in. Ha!

As stated earlier, it is fun.
Borrow someone's and play in the Devil's run a bit. That may help your decision.
You do not have to buy the latest and greatest. A used SS-18 is a great value and a great tool.
It makes Devil's into a whole new system. I will be the first to admit I have never swam all the way to the Henkel in one shot. The farthest I have is the insulation room. Once I started with a DPV I used it out to the insulation room and swam the rest of the way.
Who wants to swim these high flow caves all the time? Maybe the Luddites. Ginnie is a great example.
If I want to go to the white room and drop a stone I scooter to the jump and swim over. Easy Peasy. Same as visiting the whale bone or anything out that way. A lot of times I would scooter out to the henkle and swim through and poke around. I am well rested, relaxed and have plenty of gas when I get there. Most of the time in Ginnie or any other high flow cave I would swim or float out with my scoot. It is very relaxing and good practice. On the way out I have even more time to look around and poke into anything I find interesting.
The same applies to Little River, JB or Manatee as well known examples. Who wants to swim upstream in Manatee all the time?
It is a tool, simple as that. A very useful and fun tool that can open a whole lot of cave. Progressively of course. If you can get in at a low price of admission it is well worth it.

[jj1987]

Hi Bob,


would you care to elaborate a little bit on that?
As I have been taught you would have to be able to safely finnish a dive with the scooter not working, no matter what. This means you have to bring gas with reserve to exit + enough deco gas to safely exit with the extended time spent at depth..
So the only advantage I can see is the savings of bottom time and thus a slighter less deco obligation on the way into the cave..
Or am I overseeing something here?


Regards,
Frank

I think you're forgetting that you can take two scooters instead of one for dives where swimming out becomes impractical.

[floridabob]

Our SOP on dives that are long/deep/both is gas to swim out and a backup scooter. Sometimes a scooter per team and sometimes per team member.

Depends.

Ergo, id never start a five swimming that I would use 2 scooters for. Making it impossible, essentially, to do otherwise.

Bob