Did Edd save another one?

[Tegg]

Why is it so hard for cave divers to admit they effed up?

The numbers of dives we do safely, increases the chances for a dive where we will make a dumb mistake. Sometimes those mistakes kill us, sometimes we survive and should be willing to learn and teach from that mistake.

The real issue here is the lack of line verification. One of the first skills learned in cavern training. Know the line you are on and ensure it is the RIGHT line. Follow it completely.

It is easier when using tools which speed your exit out of the cave to become complacent and become less aware of the line. It does happen, but it is also a reminder.

If it were me, I'd do a full write up and simply say I farked up. Get over it, learn from it, let others view the stupidity, and move on. No one will discount you as a diver because you make a mistake.

A series of mistakes and foolish decisions is different. Thats not what this is...

Sometimes cave divers placate to our egos a bit to much and we forget that we can make mistakes and talk about it.

[Squirrel Girl]

Why is it so hard for cave divers to admit they effed up?

The numbers of dives we do safely, increases the chances for a dive where we will make a dumb mistake. Sometimes those mistakes kill us, sometimes we survive and should be willing to learn and teach from that mistake.

The real issue here is the lack of line verification. One of the first skills learned in cavern training. Know the line you are on and ensure it is the RIGHT line. Follow it completely.

It is easier when using tools which speed your exit out of the cave to become complacent and become less aware of the line. It does happen, but it is also a reminder.

If it were me, I'd do a full write up and simply say I farked up. Get over it, learn from it, let others view the stupidity, and move on. No one will discount you as a diver because you make a mistake.

A series of mistakes and foolish decisions is different. Thats not what this is...

Sometimes cave divers placate to our egos a bit to much and we forget that we can make mistakes and talk about it.

There is a lot of truth to what you said. But I know that there are others who would argue that the problem is knowing the cave better before scootering such that you wouldn't miss a turn (regardless of gaps and lines). That's a nice theory. For people like me who don't get to FL all that often, I'd be lying if I said I knew every turn in every cave I go in, scootering or not. I very much try to "learn" the cave by looking at it instead of the line, but I won't lie and say I never rely on the line and arrows. I try and pay very close attention to junctions, turns, etc. on the way in. This incident is good incentive to be ever-vigilant.

[victorzamora]

Why is it so hard for cave divers to admit they effed up?

Fear of being skewered and/or talked down to. I had two VERY minor incidents (seriously minor, like stupidly minor) but they caused me to rethink things. One was corrected within two minutes, another was corrected in 30 seconds. Neither were scary. I saw another diver commit a scarier issue, but it was quickly and safely handled/corrected. I learned SO much from those three incidents, and one truly scared me straight (again, no danger....but extrapolation created fears) and my fear of getting skewered by several pointy-posters has kept that from getting posted. People take things FAR too seriously in cave diving, and often forget it's a hobby. I'd gladly dive with either of the two guys in question, and I've met neither of them. It's not a matter of ego for me, I know I'm still a new, fresh cave diver. I take pride in trying to maintain proper technique, streamlined gear, etc....but I'm far from ego-driven. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of me or my diving, I want to look good for ME. I still don't want to deal with endless "you're a moron and deserve to die and should take up knitting" that might come of a misworded "lessons-learned" thread.

[kensuf]

Why is it so hard for cave divers to admit they effed up?

Ego. Same reason people have been arguing about cave diving forever and a day.

[bamafan]

From what I have observed it seems to me that when those involved come forward and post a review of what happened and the decisions they made right or wrong that lead to the incident the speculation and rumors seem to me to be minimilazed. I also don't think people think bad of them. We all make mistakes and to me someone who will freely admit their mistakes deserves alot of respect. Two incidents that come to mind as examples are Andrew's report of his near oog incident in Ginnie and the WKPP death a year or so ago where a hot mix was used at depth. I personally don't think any less of those involved in these incidents because of what they posted. In fact I think more of them for posting so that others can learn and hopefully have a wake up call. As far as the divers involved in this incident I know one of them and as far as I know have never met the other one. I would dive with either of them as I bet they are better divers now because of this incident. It is easy to say I would do this or that but do any of us really know?

[FW]

From what I have observed it seems to me that when those involved come forward and post a review of what happened and the decisions they made right or wrong that lead to the incident the speculation and rumors seem to me to be minimilazed. I also don't think people think bad of them. We all make mistakes and to me someone who will freely admit their mistakes deserves alot of respect. Two incidents that come to mind as examples are Andrew's report of his near oog incident in Ginnie and the WKPP death a year or so ago where a hot mix was used at depth. I personally don't think any less of those involved in these incidents because of what they posted. In fact I think more of them for posting so that others can learn and hopefully have a wake up call. As far as the divers involved in this incident I know one of them and as far as I know have never met the other one. I would dive with either of them as I bet they are better divers now because of this incident. It is easy to say I would do this or that but do any of us really know?

Great post!

[Squirrel Girl]

From what I have observed it seems to me that when those involved come forward and post a review of what happened and the decisions they made right or wrong that lead to the incident the speculation and rumors seem to me to be minimilazed. I also don't think people think bad of them. We all make mistakes and to me someone who will freely admit their mistakes deserves alot of respect. Two incidents that come to mind as examples are Andrew's report of his near oog incident in Ginnie and the WKPP death a year or so ago where a hot mix was used at depth. I personally don't think any less of those involved in these incidents because of what they posted. In fact I think more of them for posting so that others can learn and hopefully have a wake up call. As far as the divers involved in this incident I know one of them and as far as I know have never met the other one. I would dive with either of them as I bet they are better divers now because of this incident. It is easy to say I would do this or that but do any of us really know?

I agree with FW. I like your post a lot, too.

[Webmaster]

There is a lot of truth to what you said. But I know that there are others who would argue that the problem is knowing the cave better before scootering such that you wouldn't miss a turn (regardless of gaps and lines). That's a nice theory. For people like me who don't get to FL all that often, I'd be lying if I said I knew every turn in every cave I go in, scootering or not. I very much try to "learn" the cave by looking at it instead of the line, but I won't lie and say I never rely on the line and arrows. I try and pay very close attention to junctions, turns, etc. on the way in. This incident is good incentive to be ever-vigilant.

I think this is where some dry caving experience would help. Getting used to navigating a cave by looking at the cave rather than the line.

I'm kind of paranoid about line following, I like to verify it even when it's pretty obvious that it's the same line. It brings to mind that jump in PIII where the end of the jump was right under the main line vertically, and situated right at a bend in the wall. I recall thinking as we were swimming past it that it would be really easy to just cut the corner and get on the wrong line. Two days later someone in an out of gas situation did just that and died.

I didn't know the gentleman that died, but I like to think that he drove that particular point home.

"Smart men learn from their mistakes, wise men from the mistakes of others."

[JohnAd]

When I was doing my cave DPV training, I was exiting the cave when I ran into an unexpected distraction--some divers were doing a photoshoot, and I was interfering with it through my presence. It was a confusing situation, and I looked around to figure out what was happening briefly, then looked back for the line and continued to get out of their way. It didn't take me long to figure out that I had just accidentally taken an unintended jump, and you can bet my instructor had something to say about it. The lesson I learned in that is that when scootering, it only takes a moment's distraction to cause a navigation error.

[Squirrel Girl]

Good story.

Do you remember in Mexico that there were some *really* short gaps? Man, those were kinda scary. They might be hidden lines going in, but coming out, they might not be so hidden. Very easy to make a mistake.

I think this is where some dry caving experience would help. Getting used to navigating a cave by looking at the cave rather than the line.

I'm kind of paranoid about line following, I like to verify it even when it's pretty obvious that it's the same line. It brings to mind that jump in PIII where the end of the jump was right under the main line vertically, and situated right at a bend in the wall. I recall thinking as we were swimming past it that it would be really easy to just cut the corner and get on the wrong line. Two days later someone in an out of gas situation did just that and died.

I didn't know the gentleman that died, but I like to think that he drove that particular point home.

"Smart men learn from their mistakes, wise men from the mistakes of others."