Intro training seems to differ with agency and/or instructor

[MichelleC]

My card has absolutely no mention of 1/6ths..... When did you get certified???

This year.

[Captain Bil]

Hart from the Black Lagoon is much better in the beginning due to fissure shaped rooms. It was in very good condition when there a majority of back mount divers diving this place,but now there are a lot of gouges. I can think of passages in places like Indian,Anderson,Telford and Cow,where backmounted doubles will cause less wear and tear on the cave due to narrow side walls,but high ceiling relief.. Many sidemounters will say they will turn sideways to get through these areas,but many have not really practiced and trimmed for this situation,so physical contact with either your hands or the tanks will frequently occur. I do agree with Rich's comment,that a well rounded cave diver can use both configurations.

Thank you sir. Actually, I'm aware of the area in Telford. I just turn sideways but I can see it being a problem. The rest I was unaware of. Guess I need to get out of the Marianna/Holmes Creek areas a little more!

Sent from behind a pint of Guinness.

[ScubaStingRay]

My card has absolutely no mention of 1/6ths..... When did you get certified???

I'm not sure, but from what I researched it could be because you don't have a doubles endorsement of your card? If you didn't have it they might just post about the 1/3 of singles rule and not mention doubles. I read a bunch of older threads, and it seems like you need to request the endorsement otherwise it can be left off.

Someone with more knowledge please correct me.

[Greenwood_60]

There is part of a passage in the spring tunnel at Lafayette blue that I had to remove a tank to pass, while the bm diver in front slipped through easily. I'd also argue there are a few passages in little river that are annoying in sm... Serpentine, and the inner merry go round. I've been told Rocky horror is much easier in bm.

Regardless, I think in general cave diving should be done in sidemount. Simply because in general we're diving through dissolved layers of sedimentary rock. The passages are going to tend to be wider than tall.

As for certification levels... They serve to tell yourself and others what a trusted third party is willing to state you're trained for and capable of. I don't care if your certified for a dive or not. I care if you're trained and capable. Problem is, how do I know? Can I trust your word if you're not certified? Can I trust your instructor if you are?

[LakeCityDiver]

I'm not sure, but from what I researched it could be because you don't have a doubles endorsement of your card? If you didn't have it they might just post about the 1/3 of singles rule and not mention doubles. I read a bunch of older threads, and it seems like you need to request the endorsement otherwise it can be left off.

Someone with more knowledge please correct me.

Thank you. That may be it.

I however could care less about what the plastic card says. The card does not qualify me to dive, the training does and I dive within my training. I flat out cant see how that is wrong in anyone's eyes. Unless of course you feel the c-card is really whats important. <-----(General statement) not directed at you Sting

[LakeCityDiver]

Boy, I am sure glad I am not intro anymore! I went through this same crap before I finally got my full cave.


Well, yes and no. I think that the problem is with the certifying agencies that impose or just simply make up these standards mostly to cover their butts (avoid any liability). For the most part, instructors probably do what they consider best, but being human there is a lot of variability. I know there is a lot of "chest-thumping" here about the degradation of training, but I had an instructor that is on the board of the NACD that I thought was horrendous - not as a diver, but as an instructor.

The agencies themselves are a great part of this problem. I had a go-around with a previous NACD president and training director. Both told me different things, some of which completely contradicted their training manuals and each other. This was mostly about sidemount, intro, doubles, certificate expiration, etc. In the end i decided that I did not want an NACD card or to have anything to do with them whatsoever. I opted for the TDI intro card. Incidentally, my TDI intro card also states thirds with no configuration limitations (singles, doubles, etc.). What is funny is that I called TDI to clarify the thirds issue, I again got conflicting answers - some said it was only for training, others said for post-training. Card did say thirds - I may have heard that newer cards may specify sixths - don't know.

What I do know is that my cave training spanned several years (10 since I originally did cavern, which I later re-did). Finding the funds, available time, a decent instructor, scheduling, cave conditions (flooding), etc., is not easy and I even live in Florida. My intro training spanned almost 2 years and my full training was over a year. I am fairly conservative, mature, and tend to be somewhat apprehensive in situations I am not familiar with. As regards cave diving, I never exceeded the limits of my training but I certainly "exceeded" the limits associated with the card I held at the moment.

How do you expect someone that may have 6 - 10 dives in the cave zone to stay out of it? Sorry, not going to happen no matter what anyone claims. Thirds - the agencies state that at intro level you can do caves on thirds with a single but need to limit yourself to sixths in doubles. That means that one can take an LP130, cave fill it to almost 180 cu. ft. and penetrate the cave using up to 60 cu. ft. of gas - with no redundant gas supply - but with a pair or steel 72s, maybe slightly overfilled to 160 cu ft. total you can penetrate slightly less than half that (28 cu. ft. - 1/6 of 160) and have a redundant gas supply. This is not only stupid but is downright dangerous, but that is what the "standards" stipulate you must do to penetrate that far at the intro level. At full cave, I still don't typically do strict thirds but pad it by a couple oh hundred psi or more depending on conditions (vis, flow, etc.).

How about going off the mainline? Don't we tie into the main line doing/practicing lost buddy searches and are taught tie off somewhere to leave the line there in case they are not found. I certainly practiced doing this, sometimes at jump intersections. With the funding and time limits of taking cave instruction, one certainly needs to practice the skills needed to successfully pass. It is fairly unrealistic to expect that one can do this all and do it well in the limited time during instruction. Maybe that is why we get "crappy" divers - because all this stuff is done only with the instructor and then just minimally passing.

I think that NAUI may be the only ones that do this somewhat right. Train people to do realistic gas planning (thirds with caution), give them some tools to do simple navigation (2 jumps - should add a simple traverse to that). Get rid of the idiotic doubles time expiration and the stupid apprentice rating which again is only a cash cow for instructors that expires in a year anyway. This would give the intro divers some tools to work with and would probably instill at least some respect for operational limitations without which the reckless ones will really get in over their heads and training. As is stands, I would be surprised if even a quarter of intro divers follow their cert limitations.




Lots of luck trying to get some consensus whether SM is "doubles" or 2 independents singles. And yes, I believe training is FAR more important than the card.


I started my intro training in doubles and finished it in SM. The transition was almost seamless. I had trouble reaching my left valves in BM doubles due to a previous shoulder injury. The instructor "suggested" that I would have and easier time in SM. I showed up in an SM rig the next weekend (I did do a couple of pool sessions by myself with a video camera first) , and except for a few minor configuration and trim issues it was a breeze and I passed my intro. I suspect the ones that may have had trouble in SM would probably have had issues in BM doubles also. I guess you would have to make sure that the basic skills are there, no matter the configuration.


I disagree about "a well rounded cave diver" having to dive both BM (doubles that is) and SM. I dove BM doubles for over 2 years and within the first minute (or less) in SM I knew that I would never do it again - at least not the double LP108s I had. To me, anyway, SM is so superior in ALL ways (trim, balance, safety, etc.). The only time I may put something on my back again would be a CCR if I ever decide to do that. There is NOTHING (did I say NOTHING - well maybe BM may be required if you are carrying a billion stages in open water and NEED every square inch of your body for tanks) that can't be done in SM.




Agree completely.

The head of this nail has been hit my friend, by you. Good job on your well rounded and grounded post. I could not agree more

[MacLeod]

I'm not sure, but from what I researched it could be because you don't have a doubles endorsement of your card? If you didn't have it they might just post about the 1/3 of singles rule and not mention doubles. I read a bunch of older threads, and it seems like you need to request the endorsement otherwise it can be left off.

Someone with more knowledge please correct me.

TDI doesn't have a "double's endorsement" for Intro to Cave. I received my Intro training with Rich in 2012, all in sidemount, and I was trained that my turn pressure was 1/6th total gas supply when diving doubles (BM or SM). However, the older TDI Intro cards read: "Max depth 130 ft w/30 ft., no deco dives, no restrictions, reserve 2/3 air supply to exit, continuous guideline to exit, at least (3) batter powered lights per diver." So I can see where some people consider this a license to dive to thirds....
I believe that TDI has since corrected this, as the new cards state: "Penetration limited to 1/3 single cylinder or 1/6 doubles. Max depth 40M/130FT. No Deco. No restrictions. Maintain single continuous guideline to exit"
None of this is because the rules have changed, this is all because divers were using the single tank gas limits and applying it to doubles--and some instructors may have allowed this (I know mine did not).

[ScubaStingRay]

Right, I'm not suggesting it was ever 1/3 for intro in doubles. What agencies require you to get the special endorsement to dive doubles? I was reading an old thread about ginnie and the need for it to be allowed to dive doubles there.

[vicp]

I'm not sure, but from what I researched it could be because you don't have a doubles endorsement of your card? If you didn't have it they might just post about the 1/3 of singles rule and not mention doubles. I read a bunch of older threads, and it seems like you need to request the endorsement otherwise it can be left off.

Someone with more knowledge please correct me.

Why in the world would I want a doubles endorsement? Both my TDI cave cards, Intro and Full, are configuration agnostic. They both state thirds and 130' max depth. The Intro card has the continuous guideline to surface (nothing about no jumps, etc.), 30' vis, no restrictions, no deco, and at least 3 battery powered lights. It was issued in 2012. The full cave card simply states the 130' depth limitation and references the standards (nothing more explicit on the card).

I finished my Intro in SM and did my Full Cave in SM, and now I am hearing that I may need a SM Cave card to access some systems. Thankfully I can get that sign off from my previous instructors, but what I am really waiting for is a requirement for a P-Valve certification (card & course) - that one should really be fun, especially if co-ed!

[MacLeod]

Right, I'm not suggesting it was ever 1/3 for intro in doubles. What agencies require you to get the special endorsement to dive doubles? I was reading an old thread about ginnie and the need for it to be allowed to dive doubles there.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting you said anything--just stating that TDI never had a "doubles endorsement". To the best of my knowledge, only NACD and NSS-CDS have a doubles endorsement.