"Degradation of Training": Has anything changed?

[MORGAN]

When an activity goes from a specialized endeavor with relatively few "hard core" participants to a mass market recreation it's hard to avoid some consequences. The same things have happened in open water recreational diving and in downhill skiing, and no doubt other areas as well with which I'm less familiar.

1) More people want to participate, due to effective marketing or the development of a "coolness" factor in public perception.
2) There's money to be made selling instruction and equipment.
3) Training gets easier, standards get lower, courses get shorter.
4) The competence level of the average participant diminishes.
5) Options arise to meet the desires of people who want to participate without a large expenditure of time, money, or effort.
6) See number 4. Now we're in a descending spiral of lower expectations and diminishing competence.

There is still excellent, arduous, and comprehensive training readily available for people who want to take cave diving seriously.

Unfortunately, there are also apparently options for people who want to take the quick and easy route.

At least in cave and other forms of technical diving this is still a topic of conversation. In recreational OW diving and in downhill skiing, very few people think it's even an issue anymore - expedience in training and mediocrity in performance have become the accepted standard.

Mike

[JohnAd]

One of the issues of the US legal system.. In Germany if you sue someone and loose you are accounted for their legal cost!

The same thing can be true in the U.S., depending upon the state. ScubaBoard is located in Florida, and Florida laws would have done a lot to prevent this from happening. But the Internet is a world-wide phenomenon, meaning you can pick your venue. In the ScubaBoard case, the suit was filed in Austria. If nothing else, that means the ScubaBoard personnel had to fly to Austria to give depositions. It also means that if the court did order the plaintiff to pay court costs, the plaintiff could shrug that off, since it's pretty tough to force that between countries. The actual terms of settlement of the ScubaBoard case, like most such settlements, is not open to the public. I know the ScubaBoard ownership was ultimately satisfied with the results, but they did not disclose the full details.

There is another case that I believe has a more important precedent. A couple of years ago a doctor was running his motorboat on automatic pilot while he made himself some coffee. As a consequence, he was not ready to change course when a dive boat tried to warn him and even turn in front of him to cut him off. He ran over a diver, who lost his legs. He continued on, not rendering aid, and called his lawyer to meet him on the dock. The court case did not go well for him, as you might expect. As you also might expect, he got a lot of criticism on scuba discussion boards. He then sued individuals, specifically some on a spear hunting forum, because they were saying unkind things about him. I don't know how it came out--the last I read, the individuals he sued for saying unkind things about him were preparing their legal defense.

I would also like to point out the recent statements from IUCRR explaining that they have stopped posting incident reports on cave diving because of a fear that they might include some comment in one that might lead to a lawsuit.

[Nitrogenius]

There is still excellent, arduous, and comprehensive training readily available for people who want to take cave diving seriously.

Unfortunately, there are also apparently options for people who want to take the quick and easy route.

So true.. And I think the easiest first way to distinguish between the tow of them is the concept of the offer: If the training is a fixed course price or if it is a price per training day according to the requirements..
Only the latter does allow a real challenge in the training IMHO..
The first is always under some "time pressure" to get the student "through"..

BTW.. My cave training took an overall of 12 complete training days.. especially cavern was somewhat hardcore in that regards as it took 6 (!) training days to complete and pass..
And belive me it was not for not being prepared for the class (and yet I was unprepared )
BTW.. all follow up classes from cavern on seemed somewhat like a piece of cake in comparison..
The overall underlying concept of the training was: no overhead whatsoever as long as you are not 100% ready yet!
Quite frustrating at that stage but so much better in the following stages..

Not saying that other concepts can not have the equal outcome, but I fully favour that concept after having been through it.. During: I hated it!!! 4 full days (equalling then already the money that some combined Cavern/Intro courses offer as flat price) and not even having seen the inside of a cavern yet makes you think!

The same thing can be true in the U.S., .

Thanks for the insight John!

[Kevin Carlisle]

Jason, nothing has or will be done. Its all pretty much a buddy club. There was a thread about the mentoring program on here but that seems to be gone. Some thought it was an attack on Jim, maybe it was but maybe there was some credibility in their concerns. I for one like Jim, and know a few very strong cave divers he trained. I am not a supporter of that mentoring program. It looks like another buddy program, the only mentor name I saw I would support was Kelly Jessup, hell I saw one of the other ones that was mentioned once and thought they were a cavern student and they were full cave. Bottom line, the quality of cave diver continues to diminish because too many are trying to be a cave instructor for a living, a cave instructor when they barely cave dive themselves, and my fav a cave instructor because its cool. I think if you want great instructors, start making the first qualifying item to start that is ten years post full cave and a min 1k full cave dives.


Divers with two years experience are now trying to be a Brett Hemphill or Curt Bowen and nobody lets them know just how dumb they are. You cant replace twenty years experience with ego, and those few who do say something seem to get preached too that they shouldn't be the scuba police. Which is funny because every single time there is a death there is a twenty page thread about how to prevent it. Might as well be saying here, go kill yourself instead since the reality is the training organizations want your money and that's about it and most individuals keep their mouth shut until there is a thread about a death. Maybe one of the computer geniuses on here should create a rate the instructor program and make it anonomous by choice for those worried about hurting buddies feelings. I will get off my soap box, I just think its sad that with ALL these instructors now that I will only recommend around 4 or 5. The rest pretty much suck. Looking cool is obviously more important than having a love of the caves or turning out quality students.

[Omisson]

Jason, nothing has or will be done. Its all pretty much a buddy club. There was a thread about the mentoring program on here but that seems to be gone. Some thought it was an attack on Jim, maybe it was but maybe there was some credibility in their concerns. I for one like Jim, and know a few very strong cave divers he trained. I am not a supporter of that mentoring program. It looks like another buddy program, the only mentor name I saw I would support was Kelly Jessup, hell I saw one of the other ones that was mentioned once and thought they were a cavern student and they were full cave. Bottom line, the quality of cave diver continues to diminish because too many are trying to be a cave instructor for a living, a cave instructor when they barely cave dive themselves, and my fav a cave instructor because its cool. I think if you want great instructors, start making the first qualifying item to start that is ten years post full cave and a min 1k full cave dives.




Divers with two years experience are now trying to be a Brett Hemphill or Curt Bowen and nobody lets them know just how dumb they are. You cant replace twenty years experience with ego, and those few who do say something seem to get preached too that they shouldn't be the scuba police. Which is funny because every single time there is a death there is a twenty page thread about how to prevent it. Might as well be saying here, go kill yourself instead since the reality is the training organizations want your money and that's about it and most individuals keep their mouth shut until there is a thread about a death. Maybe one of the computer geniuses on here should create a rate the instructor program and make it anonomous by choice for those worried about hurting buddies feelings. I will get off my soap box, I just think its sad that with ALL these instructors now that I will only recommend around 4 or 5. The rest pretty much suck. Looking cool is obviously more important than having a love of the caves or turning out quality students.

Time is no measure of worth.


I think you have no clue what you are talking about ,every one of the cave mentors on the NSS-CDS list is an outstanding cave diver. I could care less about cave country Politics, but id put their dive experiences against yours any day. CARE to challenge that - then why not put your money where your mouth is and become a mentor.... Thought not.

It's not a buddy club it's about training for survival.

I had TJ Johnson as an apprentice cave instructor and Jim Wyatt in full cave- both were outstanding and demanding trainers. You know what? Either probably doesn't like the other- but both were more invaluable to me then you can imagine bringing aspects of cave to me.


I'd trust either with my life. Any instructors u trust that much?



Dan-O

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[Nitrogenius]

I think if you want great instructors, start making the first qualifying item to start that is ten years post full cave and a min 1k full cave dives.

I agree that there should be a very restrictive set of prerequisites to become a cave instructor.
1000 cave dives is probably not a bad figure as well. one could add a set of qualifying conditions to those like different cave environments (e.g. 1000 cave dives in one system in FL certaintly does not make the same experience as if these were spread out to different cave systems throughout the world)..
I do not see the need for any time requirement like those 10 yrs. you mention.
The n# of dives in different conditions does give you all you need. I'd even say the more dives you do in a shorter time period the more the actual experience gain..

[Kevin Carlisle]

I agree that there should be a very restrictive set of prerequisites to become a cave instructor.
1000 cave dives is probably not a bad figure as well. one could add a set of qualifying conditions to those like different cave environments (e.g. 1000 cave dives in one system in FL certaintly does not make the same experience as if these were spread out to different cave systems throughout the world)..
I do not see the need for any time requirement like those 10 yrs. you mention.
The n# of dives in different conditions does give you all you need. I'd even say the more dives you do in a shorter time period the more the actual experience gain..

I will always think the time is very important, I do agree that having experience in many different systems like you mention is great too.

[Nitrogenius]

I will always think the time is very important, I do agree that having experience in many different systems like you mention is great too.

What experience in relation to cave diving does sole time give you when you are actually not cave diving?
What makes the time important?
Maybe I am overseeing something, but at the moment I tend to discagree on the time aspect.
To set some extreme examples with the limits you proposed:
A) Instructor with 500 cave dives in year 1, 400 in year 2, 20 in year 3 and then 10 cave dives a year for another 8 years..
B) Instructor with 100 cave dives per year for 10 consecutive years
C) Instructor with 500 cave dives per year for 2 years

My choice in regards to best instructing experience would be as for diving significantly often enough to be at the most up to date skills and knowlegde

C over B over A.. yet only B and A would qualify according to your rules

[Jack Hammer]

What experience in relation to cave diving does sole time give you when you are actually not cave diving?
What makes the time important?
Maybe I am overseeing something, but at the moment I tend to discagree on the time aspect.
To set some extreme examples with the limits you proposed:
A) Instructor with 500 cave dives in year 1, 400 in year 2, 20 in year 3 and then 10 cave dives a year for another 8 years..
B) Instructor with 100 cave dives per year for 10 consecutive years
C) Instructor with 500 cave dives per year for 2 years

My choice in regards to best instructing experience would be as for diving significantly often enough to be at the most up to date skills and knowlegde

C over B over A.. yet only B and A would qualify according to your rules

I understand your points, but seriously, why overcomplicate everything? Do you truly believe people will be more likely to follow rules that take into account every possible situation and scenario for every cave and/ or background that may arise? All that does is make rules that are so over convoluted to the point that the average person needs to consult a lawyer to find which unique situation applies to their dive? Perhaps that is simply why the originators of the rules kept them simple, so that any one could grasp the concept of this is what you are allowed and what you are not.

[BillGraham]

To my mind, you're in a class, or you're going cave diving. I think the term "mentor" lends a false sense of security to the ment-ee.