Can't wait to go, who wants to join me?

[Jack Hammer]

Brandon, Thank you for coming here and expressing your side, that takes courage and I respect that. Please understand people are legitimally concerned for the safety of you and your group. It can be difficult to understand just how quickly things can turn sour without proper training and equipment. Unfortunately many people, including "experienced" divers have little opportunity to learn to recognize many of these dangers outside of taking that training. Please spend some time reading the accidents and incidents forum. There are far too many examples of divers with much more experience than a Master Diver listed there that learned this lesson the hard way.

Sent from behind the safety of my keyboard using Tapatalk 2

[Brandon362]

I do not imply for one second that the MD rating qualifies someone for the overhead environment. What I do state is that it shows an investment in training, and a willingness to learn. I'll be the first one to stand up and say that some of the "specialties" classes offered by the mainstream recreational scuba industry are kinda hokey and gimmicky. I know the classes that I took were an investment in learning the right way to do things. I took a buoyancy class, Night and limited vis, Nitrox, deep and rescue, to get that MD rating. While that certainly does not qualify for the overhead, that in my opinion puts me a few steps ahead of the average diver that dives on a vacation in the Keys once a year who has never advanced past the open water level. That combined with proper risk management, I think allows me to dive Buford safely based on my training and experience.
I'm not here just to defend my actions. I really do appreciate the input from everyone. I did not care for the fact that judgement was passed before all the details were known, but that seems to be the ways of the internet forums. I spoke with several people I know who are cave and tech divers, they told me that the cave/tech community is small, very quick to judge others, but if you can separate one or two off to the side, you can usually find someone willing to help.

I appreciate the advise, and most of the opinions posted here.

[rddvet]

My biggest issue from the original post is that the meetup said for OW divers. I think you would have gotten much less crap had that not been part of the initial post.

I appreciate the gumption it takes to come on here and face the music. Props to you. I understand your thought stream on the level of training that you and your friends have show a desire to be better than the average fin dragger that most dive shops produce. I also agree with you that Blue Grotto and Paradise really are not as OW safe as people make them out to be. Remember access to ER services is also much easier at those sites.

On the other hand your post smells of what a friend of mine who is a technical instructor constantly says...."you don't know what you don't know". Sure you may be an above average diver, but just like me, you and your friends don't know how much you need to step up your game to be an overhead diver. I thought I was great after diving for 17 years at an advanced OW level, with many specialties and over 500 dives. Once I got into cavern class I realized I wasn't as good as I thought, and I was much more in a feet down trim than I realized.

What you may not think about is that the entrance is basically a chute dropping into the cavern zone. It's a natural pool that's not dove year round, so it's got tons of debris on the bottom. Now you advertise on meetup and 8 people want to dive. You have a train of people in a line to get into the opening all waiting on each other. None of these people have gone through the training to stress hrozontal trim in these environments and everybody's sitting waiting churning up the pool. Everybody enters the cavern zone and without knowing it, the light is obliterated by the debris. Is everybody in the group comfortable with that? Who knows, you just met them on the internet. Somebody freaks and bolts to the surface and has an emoblism or (insert medical condition here). How many people is it going to take to drag them out and get help?

It may never ever happen, but has everyone thought it out that far? Probably not.

I'm not trying to be the scuba police. Frankly as long as you and the people you're diving with aren't drawing your names on the wall or doing something else to ruin one of the dive sites I look forward to diving every year, I don't care if you go out there and get bent to the high heavens. I just think it's important to make sure you know the realities that could occur and the liability you may be in as the "organizer." The site shows you have lots of experience diving Buford and you're the organizer. Some dead guys wife will find that post and sue you in a heartbeat.

Overhead and technical divers need to be "thinking" divers. In my opinion that means thinking 3 of more worst case scenarios ahead of the game and being ready for them. Maybe the fact that you haven't thought of the worst case scenario should be an alert that more advanced training in the overhead will be a good idea.

[Walter Pickel]

Brandon, it takes a lot to stand up for yourself and defend yourself. For that, you continue to gain my respect (not sure if that is a good thing though).

I hope you guys have a great dive.

I'll let you know the next time we go stomping in the swamp or woods.

[Tegg]

Brandon your opinion is interesting.

Can you define a "cavern" according to what you were taught by your cavern instructor?

[Benderr]

I did not care for the fact that judgement was passed before all the details were known, but that seems to be the ways of the internet forums. I spoke with several people I know who are cave and tech divers, they told me that the cave/tech community is small, very quick to judge others, but if you can separate one or two off to the side, you can usually find someone willing to help.

There's the problem right there. The only detail that matters is that you're attempting a dive you're not trained for.

I'm a technical diver with ~400 dives under my belt. I've done every kind of saltwater diving there is to do, in every kind of conditions short of a named hurricane. I'm a trained cavern diver with perhaps a dozen systems under my belt. My regular dive buddy holds all the same cards, has over a thousand dives, and is a recreational scuba instructor.

Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern.

You're putting your ego before your ability to think critically. On top of that, you haven't been trained to recognize, and certainly don't seem to appreciate the things that can go wrong in an overhead, and how supremely you will be screwed when it happens.

That's what it boils down to. Your ego can't handle smarty-pants cave divers who don't know you, or your skillz, telling you it's unwise to do something you've already safely done a dozen times. You're going to show them that they're wrong, and that you're better than the rules.

I challenge you to prove me wrong. I challenge you to scrape up $300 and go take a cavern class. I challenge you to dive within the limits of your training, and to apprentice under safe, qualified divers that will help you slowly and steadily become the best diver that you can be. I challenge you to take criticism without ego, and to make every dive a learning opportunity.

[Pavão]

There's the problem right there. The only detail that matters is that you're attempting a dive you're not trained for.

I'm a technical diver with ~400 dives under my belt. I've done every kind of saltwater diving there is to do, in every kind of conditions short of a named hurricane. I'm a trained cavern diver with perhaps a dozen systems under my belt. My regular dive buddy holds all the same cards, has over a thousand dives, and is a recreational scuba instructor.

Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern.

You're putting your ego before your ability to think critically. On top of that, you haven't been trained to recognize, and certainly don't seem to appreciate the things that can go wrong in an overhead, and how supremely you will be screwed when it happens.

That's what it boils down to. Your ego can't handle smarty-pants cave divers who don't know you, or your skillz, telling you it's unwise to do something you've already safely done a dozen times. You're going to show them that they're wrong, and that you're better than the rules.

I challenge you to prove me wrong. I challenge you to scrape up $300 and go take a cavern class. I challenge you to dive within the limits of your training, and to apprentice under safe, qualified divers that will help you slowly and steadily become the best diver that you can be. I challenge you to take criticism without ego, and to make every dive a learning opportunity.

LOL, welcome to CDF Brandon

[nkavallar]

There's the problem right there. The only detail that matters is that you're attempting a dive you're not trained for.

I'm a technical diver with ~400 dives under my belt. I've done every kind of saltwater diving there is to do, in every kind of conditions short of a named hurricane. I'm a trained cavern diver with perhaps a dozen systems under my belt. My regular dive buddy holds all the same cards, has over a thousand dives, and is a recreational scuba instructor.

Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern.

You're putting your ego before your ability to think critically. On top of that, you haven't been trained to recognize, and certainly don't seem to appreciate the things that can go wrong in an overhead, and how supremely you will be screwed when it happens.

That's what it boils down to. Your ego can't handle smarty-pants cave divers who don't know you, or your skillz, telling you it's unwise to do something you've already safely done a dozen times. You're going to show them that they're wrong, and that you're better than the rules.

I challenge you to prove me wrong. I challenge you to scrape up $300 and go take a cavern class. I challenge you to dive within the limits of your training, and to apprentice under safe, qualified divers that will help you slowly and steadily become the best diver that you can be. I challenge you to take criticism without ego, and to make every dive a learning opportunity.

As far as I know he is cavern certified by the same instructor that I had all the way through full cave. I think its comments like this that keep people from posting here to educate themselves on cave diving ... No need to bash around here

[Superlyte27]

I didn't really take it as a bash at all. I took it as good advice.

[skip]

"Neither of us would dive at Buford unless we were with a cave or cavern diver that had experience diving that particular cavern." - Benderr

Really?

Is this just Buford, or do you object to diving any system for the first time without a guide?

I personally would dive anything I could get tanks into, whether known or unknown, and most especially those that no one had ever been in before. With proper training of course and all due diligence.

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