BS! Everything is a conspiracy and has a hidden agenda. Well at least I have two Captains who honestly no that. I do agree with you though.Originally Posted by Bill_Lester
Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
Yes-here is map on how to find it and have fun
No-there is a spring here,but isn't a site for OW dives
BS! Everything is a conspiracy and has a hidden agenda. Well at least I have two Captains who honestly no that. I do agree with you though.
It's not the years in your life that matter, but the life in your years.
Yes,
But collectively as a group, we are informing them where the caves are. There are a couple of web site that I use to find the caves, Yes I am full cave > 100 dives past, but I consider myself a newbie and these sites do help me find out info before I go to a new place.
I'll bet we have more OW divers and wanna be divers reading this website than you might imagine.
Where does an individuals responsibility become paramount, that is at what point is someone responsible for their own stupid actions, instead of somehow or another the blame get placed elsewhere?
If you smoke and get cancer, it's your fault, not the tobacco companies, and if you drink and drive, Budweiser didn't make you do it, and if you go into a cave untrained and don't come out, it isn't the guy's who sold you the wet suits fault either, or the local at the gas station who gave you directions etc. It's not even the Governments fault for not dynamiting all the caves.
Some of our web sites have been used by artifacters to find sites.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
for the most part, I agree with you. We, the people, have lost a sense of personal responsibility because the powers that be have created a society of blame someone else no matter what. However, there's a difference. Education budgets in cave communities are just a slight bit lower than tobacco companies and those put forth by gov agencies, etc. Reaching the masses becomes much more difficult. Not everyone actually realizes the lure of a cave could equal almost certain death if not trained. EVERYONE knows smoking is bad. Drugs will do damage and affect one's ability to think straight. It is EASY to not realize that fact when out swimming around and you see a dark hole. Many people have a sense of adventure. These sense people may not recognize the dangers lurking inside of the cave (and may not have watched the documentary about the cave monster). This is a greater challenge. Web sites are good. I think they could be sprinkled with a few warnings themselves. Otherwise, I'm glad to have them as a reference.
I believe in personal accountability, if I know what I'm up against. (yes of course I believe I should find out but I also am a realist and realize the world works in real time and doesn't wait for me to do my research). If I see a cave and don't know how easily I could die in it, I'm going to poke my head in.
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Cave Mann
I find it hard to believe that anyone that is open water certified, hasn't been told not to go into caves / wrecks or any overhead. You might be right, I was originally YMCA certified back in the late 70's, but I did get my kids certified in the last couple of years and I know darn well that was taught to them.
Remember the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit? I think more and more we as a society are shirking personal responsibility.
Can someone explain why if my house burns down no-one thinks the Government should help, but let the whole neighborhood burn down and FEMA had better show up?
No if your stupid enough to walk in front of a bus, or go into an overhead environment without proper equipment and training, you deserve what you get. This almost "accident" in twin, anybody know if they were diving with multiple / independent gas supplies, or at least an H valve? I doubt it, how many think a lawsuit would have been in order if they had had a first stage failure and one of them drowned because of it? I bet the manufacturer didn't warn them not to use that equipment in an overhead environment, how were they supposed to know?
Nobody would feel sorry for some idiot who got themselves killed by trying to fly an airplane without training, why is this any different?
The problem is that cave access can (and has been) restricted when someone dies, a family loses a loved one, and people have to risk their lives to recover the body. It effects much more than just the person who drowns.
The drunk driver effects others. Even Suicides often effect others, and yet we can still buy alcohol and automobiles?
I'd go as far to say that you don't have to have a death or even an injury to affect cave access.
By artifacters, you mean thieves? Or legitimate? I assume you mean thieves.
I don't like how drunk driving is handled in America, but I also don't think that people deserve to die if they do it. Off topic, but if cops were serious about curtailing drunk driving accidents, they'd post up right outside of bars and simply test people before they got in the car.
How would you handle DUI in the US? I know how it's done in Germany, or at least how it was done almost 20 years ago. You might get a few at least initially by setting up ambushes at bars, but it wouldn't last and of course the bar owners would raise holy Hell.
In KIlleen Tx you could go through a drive in and get a frozen alcoholic drink that even had a straw in it, there were also "beer Barns" where you could drive through and get alcoholic beverages without having to get out of the car.
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