Unwarranted Cost Increase at Florida Springs

[netmage]

So, if the DEP's mission is to protect sensitive environmental resources, then why are you fighting to keep them from an additional revenue stream? They are obviously in dire straits, with their traditional sources of funding for of acquisition/protection strategies drying up.

On another note... would you say that cave divers enjoy the parks resources more than others? As an example, do you think someone who is swimming in the basin should pay the same as someone who is doing an extended range cave dive? In other words, shouldn't people be charged based on the activities that park provides you, as an individual?

Let's attack this from another angle. Say the Park Service says "due to budget deficits, and operational shortfalls, we regret to inform that Peacock Springs, Manatee, and other state owned/maintained springs will be closed until further notice. However, if we ask each diver to pay $15 to keep these parks open, then we will do so" What would you do then?

Butterfly World is an attraction down here... It costs $25 a day to get in... An annual pass is $40....
Walt Disney World... ~$71/day or ~$393 for a florida annual....
Florida State Parks... $15/dive day or $60/annual...

Seems like a fair alignment.... I don't have a problem paying more. I have a problem being singled out to pay more - especially when I don't receive more.

[KarsticGator]

I have a problem being singled out to pay more - especially when I don't receive more.

That's my point though. We do receive more than a swimmer, picnicker, photographer, or even a hiker. Our level of use at these parks is far greater than any other type of user. This level of use includes: time spent recreating at said park, potential impacts to the environmental system, increased administrative duties to track divers (i.e., Madison and Manatee), and as previously mentioned, price sensitivity.

If I'm in Tallahassee I would make the same decision. Here we are, as cave divers, that pay $1000's for equipment, $1000's for training, and some pay $1000's in travel expenses. So why would I think an additional $15 would make a difference?

It's funny how some people on this board blast others for not wanting to pay $1500 for a trimix certification, because of the perceived problems with diving to 175' on air. These people grounded their concerns in the fact that we could lose cave access if you die diving deep air, just because someone was too cheap to pay for the trimix training and gas fills. However, these same people are unwilling to pay the $15 to dive the same sites. (This is assuming the parks would close if the $15 fee was not assessed.)

[jj1987]

So, if the DEP's mission is to protect sensitive environmental resources, then why are you fighting to keep them from an additional revenue stream? They are obviously in dire straits, with their traditional sources of funding for of acquisition/protection strategies drying up.

On another note... would you say that cave divers enjoy the parks resources more than others? As an example, do you think someone who is swimming in the basin should pay the same as someone who is doing an extended range cave dive? In other words, shouldn't people be charged based on the activities that park provides you, as an individual?

Let's attack this from another angle. Say the Park Service says "due to budget deficits, and operational shortfalls, we regret to inform that Peacock Springs, Manatee, and other state owned/maintained springs will be closed until further notice. However, if we ask each diver to pay $15 to keep these parks open, then we will do so" What would you do then?

The issue here is that the state doesn't own all, or even most of the caves. If the state starts charging $15/day, I'll be a lot more likely to drive to Jackson Blue ($150/year more for the pass, but still only $30/day to split gas with a buddy), or Tallahassee (lots of free caves). While Leon/Jackson County might like that, it's going to hurt local businesses. Let's not forget that you can scooter all over the place in Leon/Jackson county, and other than Manatee, no other state park cave allows it. With more cave, fewer restrictions, and similar costs I'm now more tempted to head north-west.

Don't forget that there are DOZENS of caves near Madison, in Tallahassee, and Mariana. At $15/day, it would motivate me to go see them instead. At $80/year, I'll be lazy. I think most people wouldn't hesitate to spend $120/year on a state park pass-- I already do, I buy a family pass because I often bring friends to camp, to the beach, etc for non diving purposes. It's the daily fee that irks me. If it costs $50,000 to pay diving related expenses each month and we have 5,000 cave divers, then we should each pay $100 for a pass, I have no issue with that.

If I'm in Tallahassee I would make the same decision. Here we are, as cave divers, that pay $1000's for equipment, $1000's for training, and some pay $1000's in travel expenses. So why would I think an additional $15 would make a difference?

Because there's $0 caves that are reasonably accessible. Don't forget that many in the further north area of FL already own a boat, so going to JB, Twin, Hole, and dozens of others are now cheaper than going to Peacock. Don't forget that cave divers are extremely cheap. Most of them call 3-4 shops in the state and attempt to get each other to beat prices, leaving dive shops selling at 5-10% above cost.

[Tegg]

Karstic...

How about thinking of it this way....

MY TAXES PAY FOR THE PARKS.

Thus, as a Florida resident, I shouldn't have to pay a dime....

Therefore, the original $60 annual fee was already insult to injury and this daily fee increase just compounds the issue at hand.

[netmage]

Why/How do we receive more...? I get an afternoon relaxing...

And our community has a demonstrated track record of contributing more....

When did the National Association of Spring Photographers fund park improvements...?
I wouldn't have a problem if the annual fee was increased - I just don't like getting nickel and dimed along the way - especially when my tax dollars are also at work.

[KarsticGator]

Karstic...

How about thinking of it this way....

MY TAXES PAY FOR THE PARKS.

Thus, as a Florida resident, I shouldn't have to pay a dime....

You are being WAY too logical here. We are talking about a governmental agency!

[sskasser]

Am I reading this clarification note correctly; it appears to imply the instructor pass covers diving....
But then it uses the "admission fee" language instead of "dive fee"....

The instructor pass covers diving and the park admission fee while diving. It does not, however, work like a normal annual pass for admission fees where there is not diving.

I go to Peacock Springs State Park with my instructor pass...no charge to dive, and I don't have to pay the regular admission fee either.

I go to Wekiva State Park (or any other non-diving state park), my instructor pass is worthless.

[timle]

On another note... would you say that cave divers enjoy the parks resources more than others? As an example, do you think someone who is swimming in the basin should pay the same as someone who is doing an extended range cave dive? In other words, shouldn't people be charged based on the activities that park provides you, as an individual?

What does my enjoyment have to do with it? If I have a crappy dive and have to bail out early do I keep a portion of my money back? Should they charge by the dive plan - hmm 2 jumps and 1500 ft - thats $5 a jump and $.01/ft - that will be $25 please.

[KarsticGator]

The issue here is that the state doesn't own all, or even most of the caves. If the state starts charging $15/day, I'll be a lot more likely to drive to Jackson Blue ($150/year more for the pass, but still only $30/day to split gas with a buddy), or Tallahassee (lots of free caves). While Leon/Jackson County might like that, it's going to hurt local businesses.

Don't forget that there are DOZENS of caves near Madison, in Tallahassee, and Mariana. At $15/day, it would motivate me to go see them instead. At $80/year, I'll be lazy. I think most people wouldn't hesitate to spend $120/year on a state park pass-- I already do, I buy a family pass because I often bring friends to camp, to the beach, etc for non diving purposes. It's the daily fee that irks me. If it costs $50,000 to pay diving related expenses each month and we have 5,000 cave divers, then we should each pay $100 for a pass, I have no issue with that.


Because there's $0 caves that are reasonably accessible. Don't forget that many in the further north area of FL already own a boat, so going to JB, Twin, Hole, and dozens of others are now cheaper than going to Peacock. Don't forget that cave divers are extremely cheap. Most of them call 3-4 shops in the state and attempt to get each other to beat prices, leaving dive shops selling at 5-10% above cost.

Cave divers are cheap? I'm not sure I agree there. My equipment purchases are based on quality, not price. "Don't forget", each item is a life support system, so no reason to be cheap about it.

It also seems you are making a case to support local business on one hand, but then play dive shops against one another to drive down their margins? "Don't forget", dive shops are local businesses as well, and they would appreciate repeat customers. I normally feel out dive shops based on customer service and satisfaction, and then concentrate my purchases there. Or at least give them the first crack at getting something for me. If that means I pay 5% more for something, than so be it.

[KarsticGator]

What does my enjoyment have to do with it? If I have a crappy dive and have to bail out early do I keep a portion of my money back? Should they charge by the dive plan - hmm 2 jumps and 1500 ft - thats $5 a jump and $.01/ft - that will be $25 please.

Welcome to free market capitalism. The price you pay for something should be equivalent to the value of your experience. If dive conditions are not suitable for a good dive, then go elsewhere. I think there is enough information out there to determine water/cave conditions before jumping in, or entering the park.