Message we send

[Kelly Jessop]

When I read thread titles like,"Memorial missing","Cow defaced", "Peacock defaced" and "Where is the hidden mask" etc what kind of message are we sending to land owners. We want to project the image of good stewards of property and conservation minded,not that these precious caves are a play ground. Unfortunately authorities in government read our forums to make opinions about us,and when we show a juvenile side it makes negotiation for access very difficult. Are we failing as a community in educating cave divers and passing along the long standing mandate that cavers have always followed regarding preservation. In your opinion where are the failings coming from,and what are the solutions.

[Daedalus]

In any given population X% are *insert pejorative here*. As the population increases, the number that X% represents increases. An underwater cave is one of those places where you can be 100% alone, and if character is what you do when nobody is looking, there arises the problem. I have a few ideas about what potential solutions are but none of them are good for the free and open access that we enjoy in many places.

[Kelly Jessop]

Unfortunately the small x% is looked upon representative of the larger population,and this results in privledges being lost for the large X% inorder to accomodate for the small x%.

[Caver95]

Unfortunately the small x% is looked upon representative of the larger population,and this results in privledges being lost for the large X% inorder to accomodate for the small x%.

I think if the small x got a roundhouse kick to the face from a certin you know who. it will fix everything.

[Moonfuzzy]

I think that these are people who shouldn't have gotten through cave training (because of their obvious bad attitude, maybe hidden at the time) but did anyway. Now we have to deal with them.

We are not strong enough with people who disrespect our caves. We talk a lot of smak on the internet, but rarely do anything about it.

How about a fund so we can pay the fill stations NOT to give them gas? That would stop most of them!! ha ha

Come one guys, I have seen where people flat out say that they don't care to hear someone's opinion of their messing up the cave - how is that OK? Kick the bastard out, don't come back if you don't respect the resource.

I'm not being too reactive, am I?

[MengTze]

Instant gratification and a sense of entitlement have taken over from decency and respect. Not only with the young people, but society as a whole.

[chimie007]

In any given population X% are *insert pejorative here*. As the population increases, the number that X% represents increases. An underwater cave is one of those places where you can be 100% alone, and if character is what you do when nobody is looking, there arises the problem. I have a few ideas about what potential solutions are but none of them are good for the free and open access that we enjoy in many places.

I think these problems increase more than just proportionally with the number of people practicing a sport. As the community gets bigger and more commercial, people don't have the same feeling of being part of something. This leads some to think the caves aren't theirs and they can do what they want.

I really doubt there is anything that can be done. Fins/scooter marks can be helped by relaying the importance of training and respecting your limits. This message will get across to some people.

On the other hand, graffiti like behavior is totally different. Someone will not stop or not do it just because someone said so. They might even get a kick out of people being pissed in forums. A bit like teenager doing something that the school director said not to do.

While taking a memorial plaque is not okay, defacing a cave on purpose by doing graffiti is on a whole different scale. One might not agree with leaving stuff in the cave (and if so, one should bring a debate not take it out) but no one can truly believe that they have a good reason for making graffiti.

[aquanut...]

I am outraged by this activity. It truly sickens me. I find it hard to believe that a fellow caver would even think of doing such things, much less follow through with it. I would like to see a "hall of shame." Those found guilty of doing such things should have their name posted at every site, with a photo of the jerk. This is in addition to any other actions that can be legally taken. Things get around pretty fast. Your reputation will follow you everywhere. Once restitution is made, then their names are struck from the list.

[JDostal]

It's hard to stop.

I've always been someone that has really enjoyed the outdoors. Backpacking, normal camping, mountain biking, hunting, kayaking...I enjoy being outside.

Everywhere I go, I find signs of stupid people. This summer on a week long trip through the porcupine mountains in WI, 60,000 acres of pure wilderness, I'd find wrappers along the trail and other crap. Stopped at the edge of a creek for lunch - this was a spot that was at least a 6 mile hike from any road and I found a baseball hat next to the trail covering up a pile of garbage.

It's like... you took the time to hike in all this way, stop at this spot and eat, and you don't have the decency to clean up after yourself?!

You see it everywhere. Some people have respect for things and others don't. If I had an answer on how to fix it, I'd make a whole lot of different groups happy.

[aainslie]

Kelly,

I think that these sorts of messages show that we DO care. I'm hoping that landowners, the state etc view it as a positive, not a negative overall.

There will always be a few bad apples. It's encouraging that we are this outraged as a community over what, outside the water, would be considered minor events.

Overall as a community our level of concern must be pretty apparent. It would be a lot more worrying if grafitti were appearing, with no reaction from anyone.

It's infuriating that this is happening. But let's always get as uptight about it as we are this time. It's apathy that will kill our caves, more than a few idiots.