Pushing Limit And Accidents

[oolp]

Discussing this with a friend whose dove for a long time Dan Howitt I disagree with him tho I think it's good to push the limits and learn from mistakes. Otherwise seems I'd be stuck in the same old routine. Or is this foolish? Curious of your opinions thanks much.

[Rich]

https://www.facebook.com/divecaves/p...55518840555725

One of the best articles on cave diving I've ever read...

Safe diving,

Rich

[oolp]

https://www.facebook.com/divecaves/p...55518840555725

One of the best articles on cave diving I've ever read...

Safe diving,

Rich

Thatsa great article I read a few paragraphs and already is great, thanks!

[Kelly Jessop]

Discussing this with a friend whose dove for a long time Dan Howitt I disagree with him tho I think it's good to push the limits and learn from mistakes. Otherwise seems I'd be stuck in the same old routine. Or is this foolish? Curious of your opinions thanks much.

Sometimes pushing limits and progressive learning can seem like a fine line. Inorder to grow as a cave diver it is good to slowly add more, and assess your performance,but this is something done at your pace,not at the behest of a goal or a group. I felt wreck divers used to have the best paradigm of progressive penetration, with adding a little bit more on each dive, and progressively learning. There are obvious things that are pushing the limits, and nowadays with technology allowing what used to be dives a few years ago that were highly technical,they are very (deceptively) easy. One thing to keep in mind, there are two components to cave diving. There is the physical component which constitutes skills and gear, and there is the mental part. Many have theorized the mental component is a large majority of our skill set, and that one needs learning,which hints to a slow progressive nature,otherwise we would be doing differential equations right after learning multiplication table. Please remember,learning from your mistakes in cave diving can be terminal.

[Jay]

I agree with Kelly. The mental/emotional component becomes the driving factor once you have progressed to a certain point, IE, your physical condition is satisfactory, you have had sufficient training and mentoring and you have good reliable gear.
At that point it is all about progressive learning and diving with in your capabilities. Sadly, the majority of cave diving accidents for the last many years are because of poor decision making.

[victorzamora]

One thing to keep in mind, there are two components to cave diving. There is the physical component which constitutes skills and gear, and there is the mental part. Many have theorized the mental component is a large majority of our skill set, and that one needs learning,which hints to a slow progressive nature,otherwise we would be doing differential equations right after learning multiplication table. Please remember,learning from your mistakes in cave diving can be terminal.

I definitely think you're onto something. My experience in other hobbies, especially the more "extreme" ones, have taught me a lot of valuable lessons. One lesson was nearly devastating, and it got me to quit that hobby that day. Pushing limits isn't a bad thing at all, as long as the limits being pushed are done so intelligently and thoughtfully and as safely as possible. Flight testing an aircraft's envelope: Finding the stall speed is fine, given altitude. Finding an aircraft's stall speed at 100ft isn't fine. Doing so at 100ft as a new pilot without an experienced buddy with the plane slightly overweight is incredibly dumb.

My biggest lesson was learning to enjoy the dives more. I started off trying to get as much in-cave time as possible, at the cost of enjoyment. Worrying about goals, numbers, penetration, or (in my case) getting my "money's worth" out of trips will ruin your experience. I've started focusing on enjoying the dives, as well as using each dive to focus on one aspect of my diving for improvement. That builds up a good solid foundation, and without the pressure of goals it frees you up to take a more measured approach to progression.

[JahJahwarrior]

I think the question really is, what limit do you want to push?

You want to push the limits of gas planning by trying to calculate flow rates and distance traveled so you can use more than 1/3 on the way in, hopefully compensated by your speed on the way out? Dumb idea, we know thirds is already as liberal as you should be. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because carrying extra gas is so ridiculously easy, or rebreathers are just a few months or years of savings away.

You want to push the limits of navigation by not tying in any of your jumps? Dumb idea, we know that caves are subject to silt outs, lights have tendencies to die, etc. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because at best, you spend a few extra minutes doing a lost line drill and get out with a few extra minutes of deco. Tying the line takes seconds.

You want to push MOD or EAN? Well, we know that sometimes, you can dive with a ridiculously higher PO2 and do fine. Other times, people have convulsed and died on a po2 of 1.4. There’s no possible way to predict which way you’ll be that particular day. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because oxygen and air and even helium are affordable, and gas mixing apps are available for any modern phone, so even if you are mixing yourself, you can figure it out easily. Diving air at depth doesn’t save you much, diving high o2 to reduce deco cuts your dive shorter by increasing your o2 clock, not really much to gain, only a lot to lose.

You want to push the limit by not carrying backup lights? Well, if you follow all the other rules this one should be perfectly survivable…but why?? Backup lights are cheap, useful for camping trips or bicycling, and just fun to have (am I the only one with a flashlight in every drawer of the house?) They are tiny and don’t bother you at all in the water. Again, no gain to you or the sport.

You want to push the limits by volunteering to cleanup a sink basin or build some steps or repair a sign on a trail or pick up trash in the parking lot? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by improving our image and reducing our impact on mother nature.

You want to push the limits by collecting water samples from various points in the cave every week for a year as part of a rigorous scientific study working with a local grad student? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by increasing the public knowledge of our drinking water supplies.

You want to push the limits by planning a circuit dive with safety bottles and multiple stages, and a backup exit plan, conducted over 2 days with a stop at the Great Outdoors for wings afterwards? That’s awesome. You’ll build your own knowledge of how to do a circuit dive safely, increase your and your buddy’s skill, and enjoy a good meal as well.


Same routine when it comes to standard safety practices, is a very good thing. No car manufacturer is pushing the limits by removing ABS, or windshield wipers. They are pushing limits by finding new materials which help people survive in a crash, and they test them with dummies, so that nobody dies. Taking away safety steps with real people in real caves leads to real deaths.

Same routine when it comes to never helping the community, or never carefully learning how to do new types of dives, is a bad thing.

Either way, consider if you want your epitaph to say “tho if he’d done it different, he’d still be alive!”

[TONY CHANEY]

Thanks JahJahwarrior, like button still needed.

[Diverlee]

Just found like button!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oolp]

Discussing this with a friend whose dove for a long time Dan Howitt I disagree with him tho I think it's good to push the limits and learn from mistakes. Otherwise seems I'd be stuck in the same old routine. Or is this foolish? Curious of your opinions thanks much.

I think the question really is, what limit do you want to push?

You want to push the limits of gas planning by trying to calculate flow rates and distance traveled so you can use more than 1/3 on the way in, hopefully compensated by your speed on the way out? Dumb idea, we know thirds is already as liberal as you should be. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because carrying extra gas is so ridiculously easy, or rebreathers are just a few months or years of savings away.

You want to push the limits of navigation by not tying in any of your jumps? Dumb idea, we know that caves are subject to silt outs, lights have tendencies to die, etc. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because at best, you spend a few extra minutes doing a lost line drill and get out with a few extra minutes of deco. Tying the line takes seconds.

You want to push MOD or EAN? Well, we know that sometimes, you can dive with a ridiculously higher PO2 and do fine. Other times, people have convulsed and died on a po2 of 1.4. There’s no possible way to predict which way you’ll be that particular day. And there’s no gain to you or the sport, because oxygen and air and even helium are affordable, and gas mixing apps are available for any modern phone, so even if you are mixing yourself, you can figure it out easily. Diving air at depth doesn’t save you much, diving high o2 to reduce deco cuts your dive shorter by increasing your o2 clock, not really much to gain, only a lot to lose.

You want to push the limit by not carrying backup lights? Well, if you follow all the other rules this one should be perfectly survivable…but why?? Backup lights are cheap, useful for camping trips or bicycling, and just fun to have (am I the only one with a flashlight in every drawer of the house?) They are tiny and don’t bother you at all in the water. Again, no gain to you or the sport.

You want to push the limits by volunteering to cleanup a sink basin or build some steps or repair a sign on a trail or pick up trash in the parking lot? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by improving our image and reducing our impact on mother nature.

You want to push the limits by collecting water samples from various points in the cave every week for a year as part of a rigorous scientific study working with a local grad student? That’s awesome. You’ll help the sport a ton by increasing the public knowledge of our drinking water supplies.

You want to push the limits by planning a circuit dive with safety bottles and multiple stages, and a backup exit plan, conducted over 2 days with a stop at the Great Outdoors for wings afterwards? That’s awesome. You’ll build your own knowledge of how to do a circuit dive safely, increase your and your buddy’s skill, and enjoy a good meal as well.


Same routine when it comes to standard safety practices, is a very good thing. No car manufacturer is pushing the limits by removing ABS, or windshield wipers. They are pushing limits by finding new materials which help people survive in a crash, and they test them with dummies, so that nobody dies. Taking away safety steps with real people in real caves leads to real deaths.

Same routine when it comes to never helping the community, or never carefully learning how to do new types of dives, is a bad thing.

Either way, consider if you want your epitaph to say “tho if he’d done it different, he’d still be alive!”

Appreciated a ton. Thumbs up. Two thumbs way up.