"Degradation of Training": Has anything changed?

[Greenwood_60]

With all the talk of "degradation of training" last year, has anything changed?

I know the CDS started that mentoring program... is anyone mentoring through it?

[Wizard]

Went all afternoon wthout a repy? Gove divin' I guess.

Diving has become like anything else. What do I mean by that? Easy, been to a kids football game lately? There are more cheerleaders than players. Each school has 5 teams for each age group cause we are doing it for fun. Got to learn you may not be good enough somewhere, may as well be young. I remember when each school had ONE little league team for each age group. Took me two darn years to make the team, but when I did that put me in the top 15 baseball players in junior high out of 75 kids that tried out. Nobody is turned away and blown off for not being able to cut it. I've seen people handed cards that could not run a line in a train tunnel, much less the ear at Ginnie. I applaud instructors that make their students feel like they were pushed to the limit. When I took intro, there were three northeast "he man" divers in the room next to us. I thought they would make me and my buddy look like jerks. First day we dove, they got the garbage can gear check and did only one dive after spending 2500 bucks between them to get squared away. The next day two of them had quit and the other one didn't look so well. We were scared we weren't gonna pass. Never had I seen so many problems thrown my way, but we overcame as were instructed. On the last dive at Peacock I was frozen and tired but when the instructor reached out to shake my hand after the last drill I felt like I had climbed Everest.
On later trips to cave country I saw people getting cards for getting in and making it back out and show crap form the whole trip. Was not the standards of any instructors I'd seen before. One of the Ginnie regulars told me it was now tourist caving and was the card above intro now.
But then the class I took was not the one the older guys had warned me about. They did the bats circuit with a stage for Full Cave back in the day. Heard of a Florida room dive for intro too. Good times.....

This stuff is dangerous. We should have the highest cull rate for any diving activity. What are the pass-fail rates now?

[Greenwood_60]

I agree with you. I was hoping something actually came of all the talk, but it seems to be business as usual.

[floridabob]

Don't let people hire bad instructors. They will get better when they can't eat.

Not saying post their names, just guide who you can.

Don't give money to the certification agencies by donation or your membership dues, they'll figure it out. Send them letters or evidence of this bad instruction.

Grab a newbie and help them. Respond to their calls/posts for buddies.

Dive with'em!

Give them feedback and help them build their skills.

Same baseball theory applies when you don't do anything but only observe--you're the cheerleader.

[Sly-vester]

The NSS-CDS had established a Cavedive supervisor program. So dive master or higher can take a free class, and lead dives. They also must have insurance which they can purchase after successfully completing the free class. This was an attempt to make mentoring more available, and cheaper than hiring an instructor for the day. Its not much but its something.

[Greenwood_60]

Don't let people hire bad instructors. They will get better when they can't eat.

Not saying post their names, just guide who you can.

Don't give money to the certification agencies by donation or your membership dues, they'll figure it out. Send them letters or evidence of this bad instruction.

Why not post names of bad instructors (not rhetorical)? Almost everything thinks their instructor was great. It's a combination of confirmation bias, and not knowing any better. And what about those who know their instructor was sub-par, but want to be a nice guy about it... or just don't want their own skills (seen as a product of a sub-par instructor) called in to question? What about those that had personality or teaching method conflicts, and now think their instructor is a dick? If divers are a poor judges of their own ability, what makes them any better judges of their instructors competency?

Grab a newbie and help them. Respond to their calls/posts for buddies.

Dive with'em!

Give them feedback and help them build their skills.

I agree... and I've found most divers more than willing to dive down to anyone's level... but that's been happening, and will likely to continue to happen. It's definitely good, and we'd likely see more and worse divers if this wasn't already the culture of cave diving. How many of us didn't have someone happy to dive down and point out where we could improve?

The NSS-CDS had established a Cavedive supervisor program. So dive master or higher can take a free class, and lead dives. They also must have insurance which they can purchase after successfully completing the free class. This was an attempt to make mentoring more available, and cheaper than hiring an instructor for the day. Its not much but its something.

I think it was a noble effort, but the CDS has two problems. The first is liability. They won't continue to exist if they increase the rate at which they rack up court/lawyer costs. The second is a conflict of interest. Those that involve themselves with the CDS are those that stand to benefit. I subscribe to the subjective theory of value. So that benefit is a personal matter. A lot of us value seeing the damage to caves minimized, and access to caves preserved. Some of us value increased exposure as a cave instructor. It is a conflict of interest for those that are involved for that reason.

(I don't know any of the board members, I'm not accusing anyone of anything... but as Brett Hemphill said "a system is designed to get the results that it achieves"... I am simply discussing the current "design".)

I don't know the solution. I'm just hoping the dialog doesn't stop until there is a solution.

[Greenwood_60]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEU5daj6Q28

[floridabob]

So start posting. See if you can have a sticky created where people can place an instructors name on a bad list.

One reason not to: subjective. I dont think people can separate emotion. Frankly, it's the Agencies' responsibility to address issues. Anyone that has complaints should log them with the instructors agency. The members' role is to police the Agency. Hold them accountable to holding their representatives accountable.

Brett just brought this up Sunday, since he was involved in the original paper, and he was wondering what had been done with it. Doesn't seem like much.

I can't get that incensed about this topic. If the Agency doesnt show concern about their name being next to a poor instructor or instructor trainer then who am I to change them? I vote with my support and my funds. If it matters, if the movement is big enough, if it gets their attention then it will be on their meeting agenda.

By the way, my view of the dive supervisor role: the same pool of good and bad instructors are now making copies of a copy...

Not saying the thought is bad but what's the controls?

Bob

[nakatomi]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEU5daj6Q28

Thank you for the link, that video was not only very interesting but great fun to watch.

[Greenwood_60]

So start posting. See if you can have a sticky created where people can place an instructor's name on a bad list.

That's an interesting idea. I agree that people can't keep their emotions out of it. A large enough sample should de-emphasize the outliers.

What about creating a list of what "we" consider the bare minimum you should expect from your cave training? Drills that should be done, and passed, before you should consider yourself a qualified whatever level cave diver. Maybe some self tests that one could perform in the water, and determine if their skills meet what the cave diving community considers to be a minimum acceptable standard. The idea is to put a little bit of objective measurement in. Divers could read this list before and after training. Before, and they'd have some litmus tests to help them keep an eye on their own instructor during class.

I understand what you're saying on the supervisor program. I don't think there is much to worry about, since no one seems to be doing it. IIRC, you were required to have insurance that usually only an instructor would have (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here). Which would mean, unless someone REALLY wants to spend money to officially mentor divers, the only instructors would be in a position to take advantage of this program. Of course, they wont bother, they can charge for the same service. Those that really want to mentor will simply do it unofficially, as has always been done.

Thank you for the link, that video was not only very interesting but great fun to watch.

You're welcome. It's one of the things the CDS does that I really enjoy. I need to try to get to this year's conference.

A few more random thoughts...

1) Consider an independent accreditation group. No conflicting interest, as there is no other interest (at least to start). The trick would be to provide something of value to either the instructor or the students. I think the problem with the CDS trying to fulfill and accreditation role, is that the value they'd have to provide would be to the instructors. An independent group could focus on providing value to students. Another issue would be providing enough value to the people who run the group, such that there is enough value for the amount of work required. This likely means this group should take very little work to maintain, so that the small value an individual receives outweighs the direct costs. A well designed web service may be capable of handling the bulk of the work.

2) Consider a mentorship program that costs nothing to be a mentor, and allows a mentoree to receive a cave certification once complete. Ignoring entirely the logistics, this would put pressure on instructors to provide something of significant value. Prospective students could now get questionable training and a card for free, why pay an instructor for questionable training and a card? Now the logistics... no idea. It's likely not possible.