Instructor encouraging trespassing...

[RN]

Recently, I was talking with a fairly new diver. This diver was asking me about different systems in the area. We spoke about some of them. He then asked me about one in particular. when I gave him some information on it, he told me his last instructor told him additional information. I'd rather not ne too specific, but essentially what his instructor told this diver to do is trespass on privately owned land. I know people do this at this and other springs, but it doesn't make it right. What really bothers me is that an instructor, someone who is supposed to teach and uphold land owner relations, is teaching students it's okay to trespass. Maybe the instructor doesn't see it this way, but it is what it is. This is privately owned land the instructor is telling students to walk on. While no one lives therem it is still owned by someone and trespassing is not only illegal but also disrespectful and can hurt our chances of gaining access to other systems, as well as this system, legally by land. It can also cause us to lose access to systems. I explained all this to the student and hopefully got my point across. Now I'm posting it here in hopes that anyone who is doing this thinks twice about it. I'm also hoping the instructor who encouraged this also reads this. I know the instructor is on this board.

Anyway, fell free to add your comments for and against this. I'd love to see why people think it might be okay to trespass...if you have the guts to do so.

[jj1987]

I'd love to see why people think it might be okay to trespass...if you have the guts to do so.

I know for a fact that landowners read these boards, and so does the Google spider. Let's *not* discuss this here!

TDS or The Tech diver would be a better place to discuss it, since they're not indexed by Google. In person with the instructor/student in question, and then an open discussion during one of the yearly events put on by agencies would be even better IMO.

To be short, I don't know if I've trespassed, I bet I could ask different lawyers and get different answers... I'm certainly guilty of swimming under a land bridge and then walking up a spring run to get to a head spring, or walking through an overgrown slough to get to a cave. Neither of those require stepping foot on private land, but they're not really navigable waterways used for trade as the law intended, either. Hopefully if we just don't leave trash and don't make much noise we won't ever have an issue.

That being said, blatant trespassing is clearly not acceptable to be promoting. I don't know what else we can discuss about that.

[RN]

This does not deal with the question of whether a waterway is navigable or not. This is blatant trespassing on land once arriving by navigable waterway. I'm well aware that land owners read these forums. Discussing them on TDS or TTD won't keep them from reading it there. It's quite easy to register and lurk without ever posting...and I'm sure many do. So trying to 'hide' it there only causes more problems. I don't think it needs to be hidden. We need to self police so this crap stops. And if land owners see self policing, maybe they'll feel better about granting access. But if we try to hide these discussions, what else are we trying to hide?

Oh, and I've been to several events by more than one agency and have yet to see a time slotted for open discussion about things like this.

[stairman]

Ive heard that if the landowner has posted signs in plain veiw, that it covers their butt if an accident occurs there. Personally theres plenty of legal access systems for me and while trespassing is only a misdemenor unless a firearm is in possesion, I dont need that hastle or fine. And no. I dont think an instructor of all people should condone it.

[Cindy]

I have said this before. It doesn't take that much effort to ask permission. Get the person's name and ask. I have NEVER, repeat Never been turned down. I make an appointment. I have a folder of maps, waivers, articles etc. to show people. I explain my plan. I go in when I say I am going to and leave when I say I will. Always close gates. Give them photos or a map of the cave. It's just not that hard. There are way to many land owners worried and part of that worry is people causing trouble by NOT asking permission, leaving trash and disrupting their lives. If you take care and time with contacts they tell others. I have had several people call me over the last few years. Personally I think each and everyone of us is an Ambassador for cave diving. We are the ones that put cave diving in good or bad light.

[Line Squirrel]

My point of view is, posted or not, if you don't own it then someone else does. Rather obvious once that distinction is made that you should ask permission....or so you would think.

[Rich]

I suppose it would have taken far too much effort to contact the instructor involved and speak to him or her personally about this, when you could simply throw it out there on a public forum that landowners and the state read on a regular basis.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[JamieZ]

This hypothetical cave you speak of.....do you not pull your boat up on land once you get there? do you not suit up on land once there? my questions are hypothetical like the cave is..........or do you suit up at the boat launch, motor down, tie to a tree and drop in..........be honest

If you do it the first way, I'm sure you realize you're just as guilty

hypothetically speaking of course

[OFG-1]

My point of view is, posted or not, if you don't own it then someone else does. Rather obvious once that distinction is made that you should ask permission....or so you would think.

And all those dives at Telford were done how?

[Line Squirrel]

The Telford land owners had no problem with us diving there up untill the family of a drunk (minor) kid that broke his back on a rope swing sued. I have not dove Telford since it was made clear we were not welcome there anymore.