Rules of Engagement?? what have you done?

[adam0321]

JUst wondering to what lengths you have gone to keep open water divers out of caves. I have told numerious people not to enter the cave and explained the dangers. I have gotten into a few heated arguments while gearing up. I was at JB once on a sat and I was the only one there. Two dives came via kayak with open water gear and tried going in. Took a bit but finaly told them I would call the rangers if they went into the cave.

Some one once told me(who is a tec,cave instructor and padi course chief) that he was at a cave once and two open water divers kept talking about how they were going to go into the cave and he kept telling them no. I guess attempts to call the police didint work and they geared up and startred walking to the cave. The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining.

just wondering what stories you guys had??

[sskasser]

My random thoughts

If they are adults, they should ultimately have the freedom to kack themselves. I don't want the "police" telling me I can't dive a certain site because I don't have a sidemount card or a scooter card, etc.

If I bar them in some way (intimidation, threats, etc), they'll just come back when I'm not there.

If I talk to them, explaining (hopefully without preaching), the dangers (the "real" ones not just "you don't have training, you'll die" ones), then hopefully, they'll make a good decision. If that's not sinking in, I'll move on to how nasty cave divers can be to OW divers that screw up and get cave sites closed. The things we'd do to your dead body...

I practiced on my teenagers I figured out that once they think I'm preaching to them, or getting all authoritative, they simply stop listening.

It's even worked a couple of times, and I have never been happier than when one person I'd talked to in that situation came up to me later down the road and proudly showed me his new cavern card.

[BobK]

My random thoughts

If they are adults, they should ultimately have the freedom to kack themselves. I don't want the "police" telling me I can't dive a certain site because I don't have a sidemount card or a scooter card, etc.

If I bar them in some way (intimidation, threats, etc), they'll just come back when I'm not there.

If I talk to them, explaining (hopefully without preaching), the dangers (the "real" ones not just "you don't have training, you'll die" ones), then hopefully, they'll make a good decision. If that's not sinking in, I'll move on to how nasty cave divers can be to OW divers that screw up and get cave sites closed. The things we'd do to your dead body...

I practiced on my teenagers I figured out that once they think I'm preaching to them, or getting all authoritative, they simply stop listening.

It's even worked a couple of times, and I have never been happier than when one person I'd talked to in that situation came up to me later down the road and proudly showed me his new cavern card.

I was reading this, but then it seemed to get all authoritative and preachy, so I kind of stopped paying attention ...

I figure, if someone wants to die, this is the USA, and that may be their "pursuit of happiness"

[FW]

.... The instructor "says" he went up to them handed them each $50.00 and then cut there hp lines on there regs and said "you will thank me someday". I cannot attest to the truth of this story but it is entertaining....

It is pretty hard to cut a HP hose, so I think the story is mostly BS.

The sadest case of this was a father "teaching" his kid to dive at Peacock. I tried to convince him to get the kid proper lessons, but to no avail. An hour or so later, the father and a buddy headed for pothole. I recovered the father, with the kid sitting on the shore in shock.

I used to worry a lot about this, and had long "talks" to OW divers at dive sites. One such diver ended up a CD instructor, and president of the NACD.

I wrote to all the OW agencies of the time (not that many in 1977) and told them the dangers of their instructors checking out students in caves. That resulted in letters going out to all OW instructors banning checkout dives in caves.

Probably the best thing I did was start up the Cavern Diving program. I can't take full credit, it was actually Sheck Exley's idea.

That was over 30 years ago, and it did help a lot, but in spite of all the information available people still have hard heads. There may not be much you can do, other than offer them information to get proper training.

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

[parabuzzle]

A tactic I have seen work is to hand them a piece of paper to sign, willing all their gear to you, if you have to recover their bodies later.

Sounds like these forms should be included in the Save-A-Diver Kit... yuk yuk... wow that was bad... But seriously, seems like something handy to keep in your kit.

[MORGAN]

...in spite of all the information available people still have hard heads. There may not be much you can do, other than offer them information to get proper training.

Yup. I have signed many people out of the ER who were determined to sign out against medical advice. In one case, a man refused treatment even after being told he was having a heart attack. Nothing the ER staff said could make him stay, even when we got his wife and his personal physician on the phone to try to convince him. He came back by ambulance a few hours later in cardiac arrest and could not be resuscitated.

People can do pretty much what they want - all we can do is make sure that they have the information that they need to make good decisions. When they choose to disregard it, and won't listen to reason, they're on their own.

Mike

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Crazy local "bootleg" cave divers have given me a few gems to dive... I think they're nuts, but they've been doing it forever and stay alive to drink that next beer.

Its a weird thing...

I think its the non-local, OW divers with no experience in the locale and want to rush into a cave, that pose the biggest hazard to themselves and cave access. I do everything I can to stop these idiots short of getting physical.




I'm not saying its right, or safe... I just can't argue with a person who's been doing it for decades and still gets out safely. Even if their gear, trim, and overall diving practices are horrid by todays standards.

[jj1987]

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

[ssmdive]

For me it really depends, do they have any gear that I want? If so, I'll offer my dive buddy a few bucks to not report them and we'll start the bidding.

Got to hear an instructor this weekend who was teaching a class, saw OW divers in Devil's. He took their light and opened it underwater, ruining it. IMO that gives a terrible image for our community, talking to them is about all we can do.

That guy had better be tough... That is asking for a punch in the nose on the surface.

[sskasser]

Oh, and so as not to seem like I'm just bashing at OW instructors, I had the pleasure of being at a site where both cave and OW diving is allowed during an OW class. I'm gearing up and overhear the instructor explain "there is a cave here, and while we've talked about never going into a cave until you're trained, I also want to remind you about dealing with cave divers. They're a tough, hard group of folks with really big knives and bad tempers. They leave tanks and reels and such lying around in the oddest places, and if they ever catch you touching one, MAN, it won't be pretty!" Now, by the tone of her voice, she was obviously being tongue-in-cheek to an extent, and her students caught that, I believe. But she also made her point And I nearly choked trying not to laugh out loud