Bringing a scooter into Twin Caves, why not?

[nakatomi]

This topic has been brought up in the past, now it is being referenced again in another thread today.

I am keen to know, what exactly is the problem with bringing a scooter into Twin Caves?
I've thought long and hard about it and I do not understand.

[Tegg]

Most cave divers that I have seen with a DPV are not able to scooter a cave like Twin properly.

It can be done with a well experienced and properly trimmed DPV cave diver.

[nakatomi]

Most cave divers that I have seen with a DPV are not able to scooter a cave like Twin properly.

It can be done with a well experienced and properly trimmed DPV cave diver.

I was assuming the scooter is only used to ride to the first fissure, where there is a great attachment bolted into the wall of the cave. The subway tunnel up to the T is, in my opinion, very large.
Now taking a scooter past the first T, in either direction, would of course be a different story.

To take Jackson Blue as a comparison, scootering to stage rock will require navigating a lot of passages that are much more difficult to pass cleanly than the subway tunnel.

[FW]

Another big difference is the flow difference between JB and Twin. A little silt in JB gets blown away quickly, but in Twin, it lingers for hours. I was in Twin once when several scooter divers were coming out, and the passage beyond had less than 10' of visibility.

[Kelly Jessop]

Another big difference is the flow difference between JB and Twin. A little silt in JB gets blown away quickly, but in Twin, it lingers for hours. I was in Twin once when several scooter divers were coming out, and the passage beyond had less than 10' of visibility.

I agree,Twin is virtually like Peacock,and silt outs don't move. I have never seen the attraction of scootering Twin,heck I could scooter Shangri-la,but why? I think most people feel once they are on the trigger they scooter until they are in/out. The fine art of getting off the trigger and swimming through delicate areas,and changing pitch to slow down is being forgotten from some traffic I encounter.

[mdax]

I can only speak for myself. It's damn lazy. lazy lazy lazy.
For pete's sake is it really necessary in twin?

The cave is a bit more fragile than others, nice silty floor, jb is right around the corner, there is no reason to bring a scooter; take a stage and swim.
I rate a scooter in twin at 8 out of 10 douches....right up there with leaving condom catheters on tables.

I consider someone who espouses cave conservation while scootering in twin as two faced and lacking integrity.

Do we really give a crap about the caves or is that just some bs people repeat in order to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves?

[nakatomi]

I think most people feel once they are on the trigger they scooter until they are in/out.

Again I was only referring to the subway tunnel. Taking the scooter further is not something I would even remotely consider.

I can only speak for myself. It's damn lazy. lazy lazy lazy.
For pete's sake is it really necessary in twin?

The cave is a bit more fragile than others, nice silty floor, jb is right around the corner, there is no reason to bring a scooter; take a stage and swim.
I rate a scooter in twin at 8 out of 10 douches....right up there with leaving condom catheters on tables.

I consider someone who espouses cave conservation while scootering in twin as two faced and lacking integrity.

Do we really give a crap about the caves or is that just some bs people repeat in order to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves?

This was an honest question and I'm not trying to get a heated discussion started. So I would appreciate if we could leave the rhetoric out of it.

I am assuming that anyone who takes a DPV into Twin would be able to use it properly. I've been in there scootering and I have seen other CDF members do so without leaving a spec of silt. Any impact on the cave would clearly be an answer to my question, if that is due to happen, don't bring a scooter.

As to the reasons to use a DPV in the first place, I would assume that is up to the person doing the dive plan to decide. There are passages that are not on the map and would require at least two stages (for me that is) to dive safely.

And in terms of conservation, this is very easy, a scooter will do less damage (exactly zero) as opposed to taking one or two stages down the fissures and into the low section. Just look at the floor down there.

[bamafan]

I personally don't see a problem scootering the subway tunnel and dropping the scooter at the start of the circuit. But a few years ago I went to twin and the lower section was blown there might have been 5' of vis maximum. I was later told the reason the vis was trashed is that an instructor had taken a scooter class into twin and they tried to scooter in the low section. I didn't see this myself but I have heard this story more than once so I assume it is true. I don't know if this was just bad judgement or a complete disregard for any proper etiquette. Now I have seen some really good divers scooter through some small areas and by rolling the scooter out to the side go through a small section without hardly stirring up any silt. Heck I have even seen someone do barrel rolls in a cave about the size of the subway tunnel at twin. I think it all boils down to the divers ability. Some divers have no reason being in a cave on a scooter while others can go through some small areas and not hardly disturb a thing. A few weeks ago I was at Jb and their was a group of divers who were scootering back in the middle grounds area. Their scooters were so negative that they were laying on the floor when clipped off to the line. When I got back to my scooter they had silted up the area upstream of the trash room pretty good. I don't really think one can say you can only scooter in this area or cave. We all have different abilities and we should be able to analyze our own abilities and not exceed them. But sadly this is not the case.

[Squirrel Girl]

I consider someone who espouses cave conservation while scootering in twin as two faced and lacking integrity.

Wowie. And I thought you were such a nice guy, Oliver. With unbelievable air consumption and beautiful trim. The things a person learns on the CDF!

[FW]

Again I was only referring to the subway tunnel. Taking the scooter further is not something I would even remotely consider.
...

Uh, S.G., this is Oliver, not mdax.