Failure to ask the right questions.

[IRAP Administrator]

A lady I know wanted to make a dive. She had learned to dive in Missouri, probably before the advent of gold line. She said she was a "trained cave diver" and I didn't think to ask what level. I later found out she was only Intro.

Four of us did the Grand Tour at Devil's Eye. I placed a jump at the Park Bench to the Bone Room line. I had briefed everyone before the dive, and told them if we weren't to the Maple Leaf before they hit thirds, to turn the dive.

Everything seemed to be going fine. We got to the end of the Bone Room line, and I had them hold the end of a spool, while I went across to the Maple Leaf, then I "reeled them in". We all headed toward the entrance. After a couple hundred feet, The lady signaled to turn the dive. I gave her the "this way our" hand signal, but she still was frantically thumbing the dive. I looked at her SPG, and she was well past thirds, meaning she hadn't been checking her SPG. She still had plenty of gas to get out. I showed her the gold line, and an arrow showing the way out. She still insisted on turning back upstream. This also meant she was ignoring the current, and had forgotten we pulled the jump reel at the Maple Leaf. I literally had to follow her upstream, and tackle her to turn her back toward the exit. She finally gave up fighting, and went sort of limp, like a dove in a dog's mouth, and followed us out.

What I learned is to ask more specific questions, and probably check turn pressure of people I haven't dive with before.

[Jack Hammer]

Scary

- Jeff

[FW]

Scary

- Jeff

True! There was an accident in Peacock a couple years when nobody could convince an Intro diver that they were on the shortest way out. The victim turned back, but they had already pulled the jump reel, so she went right past the way they had come in.

[FW]

True! There was an accident in Peacock a couple years when nobody could convince an Intro diver that they were on the shortest way out. The victim turned back, but they had already pulled the jump reel, so she went right past the way they had come in.

I found the analysis of that accident: http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ity-at-Peacock

Post #14

[Ray Boutilier]

Is "reeling them in" a common practice? is it taught in cave class now?
is it safe?
See you in the Silt-Ray

[Diverlee]

Is "reeling them in" a common practice? is it taught in cave class now?
is it safe?
See you in the Silt-Ray

I don't know if it's taught in cave class but many people do it. If your not going back that way there's no reason to keep it in. Then you pick up the other one on the way out. That's the reasoning of people I know. Doesn't mean it's gold standard.


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[Garth]

Sounds like it should have been two dives? I my cave course if I remember correctly, if you were doing a traverse you would mark the spot on the line with a cookie when you "hit thirds", swim back the way you came then go from the second direction to ensure the path is clear and safe to make the traverse. I guess that's why they would do that so people could see the path for themselves instead of trust me dive.
I could be totally reading this thread wrong but my first thought was that this sounded like a trust me dive.

What do I know though, I'm just a vacation diver...




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[rddvet]

Sounds like it should have been two dives? I my cave course if I remember correctly, if you were doing a traverse you would mark the spot on the line with a cookie when you "hit thirds", swim back the way you came then go from the second direction to ensure the path is clear and safe to make the traverse. I guess that's why they would do that so people could see the path for themselves instead of trust me dive.
I could be totally reading this thread wrong but my first thought was that this sounded like a trust me dive.

What do I know though, I'm just a vacation diver...




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Thays how its supposed to be done but then theres shades of grey from "reeling th team in" to full on blind jumps. On top of that I was taught thumbing the dive trumps it all. So the way I was taught? Eventhough the gold line out may be faster, she thumbed the dive and wanted to go back the way she knew so she theoretically shouldnt have been coerced to follow the leader. She was most comfortable with what she had already proven to be a continuous guideline to the surface. Eventhough the gold line was faster and continuous she hadnt confirmed it. So yes this was a trust me dive.
Of course there will be 80 opinions in it. Some are 100% by the book, some are ok bending what they were taught by reeling the group in or whatnot, and others think you're a wimp if you wont just do a quick blind jump tp gold line.


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[Diverlee]

It ended ok. I'm sure or hopefully sure they discussed it afterwards.
The group I dive with, we discuss the plan including pulling the reel. If someone is not ok with that or comfortable we do something else or leave the reel in. The plan has to be ok with everyone. Also theses are dives we have done before which makes a big difference.
Like you said there will be 80 or more opinions


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[Tin Man]

Can you give us the details on the dive debrief?