See Something - Say Something

[Ken Hill]

I have trying to digest a lot of what has been posted as to access to cave sites located on private or public lands. The economy and the effort to produce smaller government has affected private parties as well as government. On July 1, 2012, the Department of Environmental Protection and its law enforcement officers were merged into Florida's Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. This resulted in more duties for the FF&W officers over a larger spectrum of law enforcement jurisdiction as well as more geographical area to cover. They need our help!

I am proposing we as cave divers do something pro-active. Get to know one another as was done in the "old days" and if a stranger appears at a dive site engage them. Be polite, ask them who they are, who their instructor was, where did they do their training? If you're put off by any of the replies or actions ... do something!

Neither Spivey, or his son were trained. They were not victims of Eagles Nest they were victims of their own making, perhaps encouraged by some perhaps not. They killed themselves as soon as they packed up their car on Christmas Day. LtCol. Spencer and MCPO Hartfrant weren't trained either. Their bodies were found in School Sink but their deaths were put in motion the minute they set their plan in motion. McDaniels, also untrained remains missing but people who knew he was not trained to cave dive said nothing.

I'd like to see a banner/ logo on this site that reads.

Promote safe cave diving if you "See Something - Say Something" Call and report untrained divers entering an underwater cave!

I'd like this banner to fly on the NSS-CDS and NACD Journals and websites. I will implement it for the IUCRR. It's the right thing to do!

[Superlyte27]

I was teaching at Eagle's Nest this past week. I asked my two seasoned cave divers to watch what I did, so they could critique my actions and tell me if I were being an assshole (which is normally my nature).

This is exactly what I said as I handed them my two cards:
"In the interest of safety, I'll show you my cards if you'll show me yours". Neither person seemed to object to this idea, and both people went to their cars and grabbed their cards. I don't think I was being obnoxious or confrontational and we each said our hello's and goodbyes and conducted our dives. I think I'll use this approach in the future.

What do you think?

[FW]

I think both are great ideas (Peter's and Ken's). Proactive is the best course.

[Tegg]

Ken,

Let's say that I engage a diver that I do not know and I ask him who his instructor was and his response is... "Honestly, I'm just here to dive, not make friends. Thanks."

Would it be rude and an infringement for me to go any further? How could you continue the conversation without being offensive and possibly causing an incident that is not needed? (maybe the guy is certified and just doesn't like people much)

You mention "reporting untrained divers" but I do not see who. Can you assist me in the steps after the above mentioned response?

I am a social guy, but I have met plenty of unsocial cave divers... I am sure you have also.

[speleodiver]

Ken,

I agree to your approach and applaud the efforts but don't be fooled. The merger resulted in a full time FWC officer living at Wakulla Springs. To my knowledge this is a new position. Many officers were placed into roles where a difference can be made. The kicker, Wakulla Springs has a very large staff. Eagles nest has a small staff. Wakulla could actually monitor and card divers as they do everyday. Eagles Nest this I next to impossible. Wakulla only allows diving where the public can not see it. (I have emails from the director to back this up). Eagles Nest, all diving is public. Both are state owned lands with equal challenges to dive either of them. Yet the one with the most infrastructure in place to allow it doesn't. Why is this? Especially when I have additional emails where the same director states DEP has plenty of money and is not selling lands off for capital. If plenty of money exists then where are the officers for Eagles Nest? Where are the improvements that are supposed to be completed by 2015 according to the management plan for Wakulla Springs? I'm sure plenty of FWC officers will be glad to know I am standing up for their jobs. The state on the other hand is too big a government to let a little irrelevant community like cave divers tell them what we really need or want. That's better left to the groups like Friends of Wakulla and the WKPP, who don't make a dent in the amount of volunteer hours and revenue cave divers bring to this state. Did you know just last week the director of the WKPP denied access to "another diver" citing training and gear as the reason? A violation of the conditions of their permit none the less but the keep ahold of it despite it states in bold letters, " Violations will result in termination."

The real issue here is we have no voice. We work, we all spend tons off money to help this state but yet it is easier for a group of Canadians to one dive Wakulla Springs then a person who live only miles away and does more deep diving exploration then the WKPP in the past 5 years combined. This is what's wrong with this picture. With no voice, you can't expect much. The few of us working behind the scenes can only do so much. My last campaign to get emails flying to the state resulted in less than a dozen being written. Seems to me we will take the back seat and continue to co drive from there. Unless of course the group wants to take the wheel and drive it like we stole it!!

[tj]

Promote safe cave diving if you "See Something - Say Something" Call and report untrained divers entering an underwater cave!

I like this. I'll make a graphic tomorrow with this remark and put it on this forum in more than one location.

[contender]

One problem I see with this approach is.....who are you going to tell, if they are on public lands you can't stop them from going. If there is some law that prohibits a person from diving in a cave I am not aware of it, but I could be wrong. The Tyler Moon approach may or may not work, but if you grab the wrong person you may drag your a$$ in a sling for a month(I know what I would do if someone touched me). Honestly talking to them about the outcome of a stupid decision is probably the best approach, if they choose not to listen you can't protect the world from stupid!!!!!

[Omisson]

I like this. I'll make a graphic tomorrow with this remark and put it on this forum in more than one location.

Maybe include NSS and NACD contact numbers and/ or Florida parks security numbers?

[tflaris]

I have trying to digest a lot of what has been posted as to access to cave sites located on private or public lands. The economy and the effort to produce smaller government has affected private parties as well as government. On July 1, 2012, the Department of Environmental Protection and its law enforcement officers were merged into Florida's Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. This resulted in more duties for the FF&W officers over a larger spectrum of law enforcement jurisdiction as well as more geographical area to cover. They need our help!

I am proposing we as cave divers do something pro-active. Get to know one another as was done in the "old days" and if a stranger appears at a dive site engage them. Be polite, ask them who they are, who their instructor was, where did they do their training? If you're put off by any of the replies or actions ... do something!

Neither Spivey, or his son were trained. They were not victims of Eagles Nest they were victims of their own making, perhaps encouraged by some perhaps not. They killed themselves as soon as they packed up their car on Christmas Day. LtCol. Spencer and MCPO Hartfrant weren't trained either. Their bodies were found in School Sink but their deaths were put in motion the minute they set their plan in motion. McDaniels, also untrained remains missing but people who knew he was not trained to cave dive said nothing.

I'd like to see a banner/ logo on this site that reads.

Promote safe cave diving if you "See Something - Say Something" Call and report untrained divers entering an underwater cave!

I'd like this banner to fly on the NSS-CDS and NACD Journals and websites. I will implement it for the IUCRR. It's the right thing to do!

Ken
I believe you are on the right page. I personally feel its important for us to look after ourselves and others that might not be aware of the dangers. I would be more than happy to help you promote the idea.

Kind Regards
Tony Flaris
904-210-4550
NSS-CDS Member & Vice Chairman

[tflaris]

Ken,

Let's say that I engage a diver that I do not know and I ask him who his instructor was and his response is... "Honestly, I'm just here to dive, not make friends. Thanks."

Would it be rude and an infringement for me to go any further? How could you continue the conversation without being offensive and possibly causing an incident that is not needed? (maybe the guy is certified and just doesn't like people much)

You mention "reporting untrained divers" but I do not see who. Can you assist me in the steps after the above mentioned response?

I am a social guy, but I have met plenty of unsocial cave divers... I am sure you have also.

Joe
I just try to be honest with the divers and tell them that I care about them and do not want them to get hurt.

TF