Experienced Cavers and Tech Divers Who've Died

[Benderr]

I keep having the same conversation with OW divers who think 10 trips to the gate in Vortex, qualifies them to be cave divers. I'm having the same conversation with freshly minted cavern divers who think cavern = cave.

Being a lowly cavern diver myself, I feel I have less room to lecture folks with the same level of training.

Perhaps I'm off base, but I think it would be beneficial to give these folks a list of names, and let them look up the circumstances of those peoples' passings, and then simply ask the question, "Are you a better diver than these folks?" These (in some cases) world-class pioneer divers thought they could bend the rules, and look what happened.

If you think this is a bad idea, please make your argument, I'm open-minded on the subject.

If you agree with my thinking, please add names to the thread. I'm mostly interested in full cave or technical divers, and I'd like to focus on folks who are experienced vs. newly minted.

Thanks

p.s.: The reason I think this is a good idea is because you often get better results with an argument by asking a question as opposed to making a statement. Also, one of my favorite underwater photographs is a NatGeo pic by Wes Skiles. Agnes Milowka is one of the two divers in the photo (see below). Whenever I see that photo, I'm struck by amazing beauty of that location. It's indescribable. My second thought is always, two-thirds of the people executing this dive are dead. To me, it's humbling.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s-cave-714.jpg

[Sludge]

I believe Squirrel Girl took this picture.

[corvettejoe]

It shouldn't matter if you have more or less training than more experienced people... the fact is, you must have a good head on your shoulders and know what your limits are if this concerns you at all.
There's nothing wrong with expressing your concern to those that are trying to go past their training and diving dangerously. It will only serve as a warning to keep them safe. Maybe it will get through to them, maybe it wont... you did your job.

This name always comes to mind for me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shaw_%28diver%29

[Garth]

If this is a project you're passionate about it has a chance of working. The aim should be well-known should be revisited frequently when discussing this list. This list you speak of could easily be taken in an offensive way. Even though attempting to keep cavern divers out of caves is a noble and popular stance, the method and content must be accurate and tasteful.

Having said that I must first state that I am no cave diver nor am I an experienced technical diver. Heck, I consider myself new to Diving. Before you write me off on this topic however know that I was planning on meeting Wes Skiles at some point after being impressed by his work the waters journey. I was watching that natgeo extreme Cave diving for somewhat the 40th time at the precise time I had found out that he had passed away. I became Agnes's Facebook friend shortly before she traveled to tank cave. These are people that I looked forward to meeting because they shared a passion for diving and somehow made their way to either my tv screen or computer screen. There are plenty of other Divers that share this passion and I look forward to diving with however the passing of these two made it extremely real given the timing.

I wish you the best of luck my friend.





Garth

[jj1987]

I keep having the same conversation with OW divers who think 10 trips to the gate in Vortex, qualifies them to be cave divers. I'm having the same conversation with freshly minted cavern divers who think cavern = cave.

Being a lowly cavern diver myself, I feel I have less room to lecture folks with the same level of training.

Perhaps I'm off base, but I think it would be beneficial to give these folks a list of names, and let them look up the circumstances of those peoples' passings, and then simply ask the question, "Are you a better diver than these folks?" These (in some cases) world-class pioneer divers thought they could bend the rules, and look what happened.

If you think this is a bad idea, please make your argument, I'm open-minded on the subject.

If you agree with my thinking, please add names to the thread. I'm mostly interested in full cave or technical divers, and I'd like to focus on folks who are experienced vs. newly minted.

Thanks

p.s.: The reason I think this is a good idea is because you often get better results with an argument by asking a question as opposed to making a statement. Also, one of my favorite underwater photographs is a NatGeo pic by Wes Skiles. Agnes Milowka is one of the two divers in the photo (see below). Whenever I see that photo, I'm struck by amazing beauty of that location. It's indescribable. My second thought is always, two-thirds of the people executing this dive are dead. To me, it's humbling.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...s-cave-714.jpg

I don't know that a list of trained cave divers or technical divers who died tech/cave diving would really prove anything. It almost seems like a list you'd use to justify NOT getting training.

Wouldn't the size of the cave diving award lists be a better example of why we get training, along side a list of untrained fatalities?

[hunabku]

To me, even more impactfull is the list of names of all of the divers who died while following all of the guidelines established for safe cave diving.

Its a pretty short list.

1)Parker Turner

Could be more but I am not aware of them.

[Shocky]

The two guys at Madison 1999. The cave divers dilemma; what if you do everything right and still die!

[Shocky]

I believe Squirrel Girl took this picture.

Very sad.

[tursiops]

To me, even more impactfull is the list of names of all of the divers who died while following all of the guidelines established for safe cave diving.

Its a pretty short list.

1)Parker Turner

Could be more but I am not aware of them.

One follow-up on the Indian Springs incident.
http://earth.huji.ac.il/data/pics/ca...r+collapse.pdf

[Tessunderwater]

I'm also a newer cavern diver as of April with about 15 cavern dives so far. I still feel that I am barely a twinkle in the eye of the cave community. I am also taking a slow progression with training and talking / diving with people to gain mentorship. This has been a wonderful learning experience for me so far and I thank those more experienced that have taken the time to mentor me.
I know other people who have the wrong attitude for this kind of diving and a list of seasoned cave divers/ tech divers who have died probably won't do much for them. However I know others with a better attitude who just don't know since they are newer to overhead training. That list and accident/ incident reports will help give those people perspective.


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