For the 2/3rds that don't always run a line.....

[Ben M]

Using the current poll results, 1/3 of cave divers always run a line. That's wonderful and if those divers want to debate the merits they can argue on the other thread. For the other 2/3rds of divers in the poll, what are the scenarios where you opt to not run a line?

Here are some of the common reasons I've seen given:

-too many lines already run from open water
-clear and high flow cave (Ginnie and JB)
-familiarity with the cave
-blind jump to another continuous line
-peer pressure
-stupid and/or lazy
-carrying scooter and stages
-don't run an additional setup or cleanup dive

What'd I miss? Which ones are worth the extra risk?

[Marc Bryan]

See this post. It details one scenario I have been thinking about, along with a diagram. I would be interested in a complete intelligent reason inducing critiquing/tearing apart of the scenario.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ed=1#post86629

[BobK]

Using the current poll results, 1/3 of cave divers always run a line. That's wonderful and if those divers want to debate the merits they can argue on the other thread. For the other 2/3rds of divers in the poll, what are the scenarios where you opt to not run a line?

Here are some of the common reasons I've seen given:

-too many lines already run from open water
-clear and high flow cave (Ginnie and JB)
-familiarity with the cave
-blind jump to another continuous line
-peer pressure
-stupid and/or lazy
-carrying scooter and stages
-don't run an additional setup or cleanup dive

What'd I miss? Which ones are worth the extra risk?

The only one I'd consider is a visual jump from a side line to the gold line. You can argue that you have a continous line since you are now on the gold line. If this is the completion of a circuit then you know th gold line exit is good since it is the way you came in.

[jj1987]

See this post. It details one scenario I have been thinking about, along with a diagram. I would be interested in a complete intelligent reason inducing critiquing/tearing apart of the scenario.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ed=1#post86629

There's no way to avoid the chance of having to find the line...I guess you could OK the line the whole time, but then that would take away from the scenery of cave diving, which is why we're there. There is a way to avoid having to find the line and THEN go find another.

Plus, when I'm off the line, I'm there, and I can get closer if I see a siltout coming. I've been in a few zero viz exits, and each time, I've seen it coming, and was on the line before it got to zero viz. If I leave a visual jump, I could be 1000ft away and return to zero viz, never having the chance to get closer as the silt starts coming.

[tmcdonal]

Using the current poll results, 1/3 of cave divers always run a line. That's wonderful and if those divers want to debate the merits they can argue on the other thread. For the other 2/3rds of divers in the poll, what are the scenarios where you opt to not run a line?

Here are some of the common reasons I've seen given:

-too many lines already run from open water
-clear and high flow cave (Ginnie and JB)
-familiarity with the cave
-blind jump to another continuous line
-peer pressure
-stupid and/or lazy
-carrying scooter and stages
-don't run an additional setup or cleanup dive

What'd I miss? Which ones are worth the extra risk?

From my other post (http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...6259#post86259):

1) If I'm not familiar with the layout of the entrance OR low viz OR it's been a while ("permanent" line does get moved) OR it's low flow (yes, just low flow is enough), I'll run a line. If I'm entering a high flow, familiar cave where it's next to impossible to not be ejected near the entrance, I'll skip the primary.

2) On jumps, for caves I know AND in large tunnels AND with high flow AND with clear viz, I'll *SOMETIMES* (lots of caveats) do a visual for a first jump off the mainline. Never a second visual, no matter how tempting that I "know where I'm going".

On point #2, where I say "a first jump off the mainline", Andrew put it more succinctly with never a visual from white to white.

As was pointed out, this is with the understanding that my buddy and myself are in full agreement, no peer pressure.

Also, if I had to give advice to another diver asking, I'd say "run a line". Not in the least bit hypocritically, because if they're asking, one of the above contradictions is true.

-Tom

[Marc Bryan]

There's no way to avoid the chance of having to find the line...I guess you could OK the line the whole time, but then that would take away from the scenery of cave diving, which is why we're there. There is a way to avoid having to find the line and THEN go find another.

Plus, when I'm off the line, I'm there, and I can get closer if I see a siltout coming. I've been in a few zero viz exits, and each time, I've seen it coming, and was on the line before it got to zero viz. If I leave a visual jump, I could be 1000ft away and return to zero viz, never having the chance to get closer as the silt starts coming.

In my scenario there is no "leaving a visual jump" at all, much less 1000' away. I also would not be having to find a line, and then find another.

I want to make it clear that I am not opposing the installation of lines. I in no way am trying to change anyone's mind. I install jumps myself. I just wanted to foster discussion, and make the point that absolutes are not always so. There are arguments against my scenario, such as a collapse on the gold line between the two jumps, and I am sure some of you will offer others.

[Gary]

-too many lines already run from open water
What'd I miss? Which ones are worth the extra risk?

That one would be my choice. Typically in conditions where it is not an "extra risk" it is actually an aliviation of risk. There are several situations where I have not running a line to reduce risk (to others). I feel these to be completely justifiable.

Since the reasons for this list don't have to be sane or reasonable I'm sure I could come up with a lot more given time but here are a few off the top of my head (with variations on specifics and justifications):

to not lure OW divers into cave
reduce damage/wear to the cave
keep passages secret
jump is within arms reach of other line
many lines already run (not in open water)
natural (or man-made) formation serves as effective guideline
a line would be nearly useless in situation (for whatever reason)

[phillip1]

You can argue this all day, there really is no valid reason not to run a line. If there are too many divers lines going in a cave then there are too many divers in the cave in first place. No matter how well you know a cave if you need to do an emergency exit and it is compounded by zero viz for some reason, you need to be able to just follow a continuous line out and have absolutely no room for second guessing or errors by having a gap or gaps.
From reading the posts here of the various divers who actually try to rationalize not running a continuous line I hope you guys never come and dive in the DR should, god forbid, an accident happen because of such irresponsible practices you would really do cave diving prejudice here as it is kind of accepted of landowners but only just.
Should something happen and the facts come out that some idiot drowned because he or she did not run a line and follow the most basic of basic simple easy safety rule, you would burn access, the tourism ministry would just shut down the caves. My friends & I who explore we try to convince weary landowners that there are safety procedures that cave divers adhere to and that if done correctly cave diving can be fairly safe.
I just do not understand how with experience you get to these idiotic conclusions about not running a line? it should be the exact opposite and with experience you should get even more conservative and always try to improve safety.

[phillip1]

If you get to a cave and there are too many diver's line already in place, then maybe, although very inconvenient, you should consider not diving that cave or waiting until a few teams exit, not choose to dive the cave anyway and not run a line for other diver's safety, that is NOT an excuse for not running a line.
I suppose that it is like in surfing at crowded spots, first come first serve, wake up earlier and be among the first in the cave.
A cave can only physically accommodate a certain number of divers safely so if you diving and you see way too many lines, YOU are being unsafe and selfish by deciding to dive there anyway and disregarding the fact that there are too many divers already in.
Like I said first come first serve.

[sea2summit]

I suppose that it is like in surfing at crowded spots, first come first serve, wake up earlier and be among the first in the cave.
A cave can only physically accommodate a certain number of divers safely so if you diving and you see way too many lines, YOU are being unsafe and selfish by deciding to dive there anyway and disregarding the fact that there are too many divers already in.
Like I said first come first serve.

I agree in places like Hole, Twin (most of mill pond) and I'm sure there are places like those elsewhere but...What do you think the maximum capacity of the devils system is? Places where the cave capacity is nearly unlimited it just makes more sense to just run the gold line to the surface even if it would tempt OW divers to enter the cave it would also make it easier for them to exit. My noob $0.02.

I generally place a jump to start a circuit but when I come back to gold all visual it (if I can clearly see gold line). Like others said don’t vis white to white or more than once.