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  1. #1
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    Default Under ice diving?

    This is a copy of a post in Ontariodiving.com by Marc Belair. He gave me permission to post it here to get some ideas from members here who have extensive experience in diving in overhead environments.

    Though some members of our forum have formally/informally discussed this topic, it came back to the surface yesterday when a diver was recovered 400' from the hole in quarry yesterday. Though no details of the accident have been released (gear, training), what is known was that the diver was diving alone and did not have a continuous guideline to the surface.

    When our group ice dives we all use our skills from our cave training to conduct the dive as safely as possible. The one main difference (on OC) is that we always dive with a stage and breath off of it. If there happens to be an issue with a free flow, the dive is called, and you feather your stage valve until the exit. Back gas is used as reserve only.

    To get an idea of how the dive is conducted, I've included a link to a video i made a few weeks back.



    "Under Ice Diving?

    For over a decade, ideologies have been in opposition as to how to dive safely under the ice.
    The first technique with a tethered diver with tender and safety diver at the surface proved reliable and all agree to say that it is safe. It allows almost any diver with a bit of experience and a short training to go under the ice and see what the frozen environment looks like, widening his horizons a little. The major disadvantage of this technique lies in the limits which it imposes and in its repetitive aspect. For one who dives one or twice per year under the ice and begins in the sport, it can be fully satisfactory. It can also meet the needs for seasoned divers who simply feel the need to make bubbles during the winter interval.

    The second method makes use of techniques developed in caves and which have proven to be reliable there. Divers who have the proper training, equipment, experience and the rigor can venture much further while maintaining a continuous link to the surface. The caving techniques can be applied as such to our winter environment but require being adapted according to the goals of the dive and the particular conditions of the medium. It should be questioned if the technique can be adapted to certain environments. To dive the St-Lawrence River with its current, its quasi infinite space and the temperature of its water barely above the freezing point is perhaps not such a medium. I personally decided that the risks where just too high several years ago.

    The major problem with the second technique lies in the level of improvisation with which one sees this technique applied. Many divers with little or not experience, inadequate equipment, an obvious lack of preparation and formation venture where they should not go.
    Scuba diving is a sport which attracts by its nature, people who seek adventure. Not all divers are willing or can afford to go to Florida or Mexico to follow a formation which will be applied here under ice a few times a year. Not all divers are willing or can afford suitable equipment.

    People will take short cuts and will cut try to save moneys on their training and equipment while thinking that they will manage. In the majority of the cases, the diver returns unscathed to tell his tales, some unfortunately will end their life in an ice covered hole.
    We need to lay down rules of formation for this practice. Based on the rules of diving cave and modified according to the medium. Tom Mount of IANTD is ready to endorse such a training program but waits until an instructor with the necessary experience builds the program. The training offered for cave diving made it possible to considerably reduce the number of deaths in caves; an equivalent training for our ice caves could possibly have the same effect.

    Marc Belair"



    Scott


  2. #2
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    Default

    Interesting that other people are using cave techniques under the ice. I've wanted to for a long time. I usually do around 10 ice dives a year here in Wisconsin, and have wanted to just use my reel for a long time.

    Unfortunately most of the time I go ice diving with other groups that won't even think about letting me do it, or I'm with my local shop that is doing a class so we are all doing it by the book.

    How would you go about tying off? I was thinking that I would make a primary tie off to an ice screw on the surface and then make a secondary tie off on the bottom right under the hole to a rock or other object.

    I usually just dive sidemount under the ice the past couple of years...makes it a lot easier to get out of the holel when you're done.

    Everyone spends the first nine months of life in water. The lucky ones make frequent return visits.

  3. #3

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    I have been planning a dive under the ice without ropes for a while but without the time to execute it.

    I figure since we dont have to much for structure like rocks to tie off on, using something like silt spikes would be required.

    I plan to dive sidemount also which would make getting in and out way easier and would make carrying a pile of spikes easiers as well.

    also planned to use a bit heavier line than the standard #24 because its a bit easier to manipulate with thick dry gloves on and will be less likely to roll behind the spool.

    I am hung up on weather to pick up the stakes on exit or leave them for another time. they would likely be a PITA cause they are filled with sediment but who knows if I would return to the same location again for a while. dunno, what i am going to do yet.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omicron View Post
    How would you go about tying off? I was thinking that I would make a primary tie off to an ice screw on the surface and then make a secondary tie off on the bottom right under the hole to a rock or other object.
    That is essentially what we do. Some teams use the legs of a solid structure like a picnic table (that is frozen into the ground) as their primary tie-off, others use an ice screw.

    As Scott was saying above, really cold water (32-36F) can play havoc on your equipment. If you have a free flow in one reg, the second free flow is now a few seconds away for your secondary reg ... then the chances of your inflator free flowing is very high. This is why we breath off a stage and keep our back gas for backup only. Another thing we do for deeper dives is to disconnect the bcd and orally inflate the wing...no chance of it sending you to the surface if it can not free flow on you.

    We try to minimize any potential for free flows because everything seems to happen at once and multiplies in seconds in cold water.


  5. #5
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    Default

    After moving down here from Michigan 4 years ago. Diving and chain saws should never be used in the same sentance.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogDiver View Post
    After moving down here from Michigan 4 years ago. Diving and chain saws should never be used in the same sentance.
    LOL.... I would love to dive 72F water year round but sometimes I think gearing up when its 28-35F in a drysuit is a hell of a lot better then 95F with a cloud of those giant FL skeeters circling overhead

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWoodsDiver View Post
    I have been planning a dive under the ice without ropes for a while but without the time to execute it.

    I figure since we dont have to much for structure like rocks to tie off on, using something like silt spikes would be required.

    I plan to dive sidemount also which would make getting in and out way easier and would make carrying a pile of spikes easiers as well.

    also planned to use a bit heavier line than the standard #24 because its a bit easier to manipulate with thick dry gloves on and will be less likely to roll behind the spool.

    I am hung up on weather to pick up the stakes on exit or leave them for another time. they would likely be a PITA cause they are filled with sediment but who knows if I would return to the same location again for a while. dunno, what i am going to do yet.
    Not sure what your environment is like but what I enjoy at the quarry is the location where the hole is cut. It is in about 2' of water, makes entering & exiting a breeze. As Kevin says (brokenbones) primary tie-off with a stake/ice screw with the secondary just below the hole. Every once in a while, we throw a rock on the line to keep it in place.

    If the hole was over a deeper area I would probably have someone on the surface as support and install a thicker 1/2" poly pro rope to a weighted anchor and tied-off to the surface. My primary tie off with the reel would be at the bottom directly below the hole. (fire retardent suit on). One of the concerns having a hole in a deeper section of a lake/quarry is a lost/cut line. The area is huge, you need to know where the hole is at all times.

    There have been equipment concerns depending on where you are doing you dive.The St.Lawrence river this time of year usually runs around 33-34F just above freezing add that to the current many divers have experienced multiple free flows. Quite a few divers have stopped going there and stick to the balmy 37F water at the quarry where free flows do not seem to occur with such frequency.

    Scott


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogDiver View Post
    After moving down here from Michigan 4 years ago. Diving and chain saws should never be used in the same sentance.
    Ya , fer sure , you betcha dere
    I did the Ice Cert class and didn't do another one.
    Yes , I remember getting in and out of da hole was EEK!!

    Of course , that was LONG BEFORE I had any real overhead training.

    I can DEFINATELY SEE why you don't use any of your "backgas" due to free-flow issues/inflator issues. (Froze mine open at the surface , me did...UFFDA)

    Interesting. PLEASE keep us posted on all of your progress(es). (SMILE)

    Jean

    Oh Lord , keep us safe , ALWAYS safe , and keep ME PRUDENT , ALWAYS PRUDENT !!!

  8. #8
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    Default Ice Diving Pics.

    Here are a few pics. of a friend of mine in Wi. actually pursuing this strange activity. Notice how good he looks upon surfacing. This is from Lake Mendota in Madison, Wi..
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  9. #9

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    [QUOTE=Serota;70915]Here are a few pics. of a friend of mine in Wi. actually pursuing this strange activity. Notice how good he looks upon surfacing. This is from Lake Mendota in Madison, Wi..[/QUOTA]

    THX for the photo's Serota! Man, look at that nicely cut entrance hole and warm cabin in the background! I did quite a bit of ice diving when I first got my OW cert, in 72, and never had a problem with my Scubapro Mark 5 or BCD freezin up, ya know..... I remember not being able to talk intelligently for an hour after the dive. I grew up in St Cloud, MN, and there were plenty of fish houses out on numerous frozen lakes. One time, with a 4' thick ice pack, we cut stairs going down into the water, with a 4' X 8' wide hole. I've tried to find the slide film my buddy shot with his Nikonos, us at 70', looking up through this crystal clear blue water, and the 3/16" nylon line arcing it's way to the surface. Another dive (my first ice dive) I tied off to my parents station wagon's bumper parked on the ice next to us, submerged and swam around, until I heard the cracking like mad, and shot to the surface (not suggested). All the noise was a another car driving by, as I had the image of my parents car falling through the ice? This is what we used to do for fun. Fast forward 37 years later, and I'm still tied off to something, diving somewhere, with no real close calls. Safe diving ya'll.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwenner View Post
    I remember not being able to talk intelligently for an hour after the dive.
    That's right, blame it on the cold!

    Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.


 

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