Wayne's World

[Gene Powell]

I agree with benthic! If this is the case, and the number of guided dives are limited(assuming the guided diver demonstrates competency) then I not only like this system, but would suggest it be used at other sites as well. Thanks Walter for the information.

[BgDadddy]

I have to agree with Walter on this one. I don't care how many dives someone has, you should definately go to WW with someone who knows the system for your first couple of dives. It is a nasty, hairy system that will humble you very quickly, possibly with some very bad results.

Walter took me in there my first time and I still remember the way I felt as soon as I got into the cave (Holy CRAP! Why would anyone want to dive in this place?!?!) A couple dozen dives later, I love the cave. Point is, I would probably have had a terrible experience in there without a guide my first time.

I've taken two other people in there for their first time and they were quite happy to have me along as well. (To my knowledge, neither of them is really interested in diving it again).

I'm just looking forward to getting it opened up again.

[FW]

So let me get this straight... <snip> ... the solution that the CDS has come up with is to make it harder for people who have cave training and have met the access requirements to dive there?

I think you will like this new guide system. After you go with a guide a few dives, you can become a guide, or just "self guide".

Not knocking your training or experience, but no agencie's training really prepares someone for *every* type of cave diving. The best you can hope for is to get enough training to aquire a basic skill set, warn you of the hazards, and prepare you to learn some of the more complex caves that no instructor would take you during training.

[FW]

One other thing, School Sink has *ALWAYS* required a guide, just didn't have a formal list of guides before now.

This is the old management plan, still on the NSS-CDS website:

Comply with general diving requirements plus the following:
1. Must show proof of completion of 100 cave dives after the completion of full cave training.
2. Either have previously performed dives in School Sink or dive with a cave diver familiar with the system.
3. Shall be certified to utilize breathing gases appropriate for depths beyond 130 FSW per NSS-CDS Standards and Procedures.
4. Shall have DAN diving accident insurance or equivalent
5. Must hold a DPV specialty card or show proof of prior experience and have logged at least 5 swim dives in School Sink before a DPV may be used in the system.
6. Complete a Cave Observation Form upon completion of the dive and give it to the Property Manager within 1 week of the dive.

[Benthic]

I think you will like this new guide system. After you go with a guide a few dives, you can become a guide, or just "self guide".

Not knocking your training or experience, but no agencie's training really prepares someone for *every* type of cave diving. The best you can hope for is to get enough training to aquire a basic skill set, warn you of the hazards, and prepare you to learn some of the more complex caves that no instructor would take you during training.

Yes after reading what Walter posted, I must admit that I like the idea. I certainly agree that there are some systems where it is wise to go with someone who has been there before. But as you mentioned, eventually one should be in a position to 'self guide' if one so chooses.

It's my hope that other systems that currently require a guide on every dive will consider adopting a policy like this one that requires some 'familiarization dives' with a guide, but then allows for unsupervised diving.

Brian

[FW]

It's my hope that other systems that currently require a guide on every dive will consider adopting a policy like this one that requires some 'familiarization dives' with a guide, but then allows for unsupervised diving.

Brian

I agree with you, but in many cases, it is the land owner that insists on the guide system.

[Tegg]

It's my hope that other systems that currently require a guide on every dive will consider adopting a policy like this one that requires some 'familiarization dives' with a guide, but then allows for unsupervised diving.

Brian

My hope is that the program at Waynes World can be one for other systems to align with in the future.

[fno]

I realize now that my post was the first public mention of a change to a guided system at School. Lots of people have been consulted in forming the new plan for the site, including the original explorers, present day regulars there, the Property Manager (Paul Heinerth), instructors, the BOD, and all were in agreement when presented with all the issues that this type of guided system was worth a try. In a nutshell, the Cave Diving Section's liability expands tenfold when due care is not exercised in the management of the property. While it is true that these guys and the drunk lady did not belong there and technically were tresspassing. The section would not be exercising "due care" by not looking for a means to prevent any further accidents there. The primary problems that have been identified were: short access hours due to signing in with Scuba West (10-5), piggybacking of unqualified and or non-member divers, poor lock and gate management, single handed care of the property (Paul H.) and missing or incorrectly filled out waivers. Having a core group of guides solves most of these problems and also offers the occasional or out of towners a chance to visit the site with an experienced diver familiar with the site. For those that are already more than qualified to dive there, a mentoring program was incorporated into the plan to enable those people to access the site without a guide. If this plan proves to be successful, yes I would like to see it applied elsewhere. As always, anyone that wants to contact me directly to discuss this or any other CDS issue is welcome to call me or meet with me when I am in cave country

[Cantey]

I realize now that my post was the first public mention of a change to a guided system at School. Lots of people have been consulted in forming the new plan for the site, including the original explorers, present day regulars there, the Property Manager (Paul Heinerth), instructors, the BOD, and all were in agreement when presented with all the issues that this type of guided system was worth a try. In a nutshell, the Cave Diving Section's liability expands tenfold when due care is not exercised in the management of the property. While it is true that these guys and the drunk lady did not belong there and technically were tresspassing. The section would not be exercising "due care" by not looking for a means to prevent any further accidents there. The primary problems that have been identified were: short access hours due to signing in with Scuba West (10-5), piggybacking of unqualified and or non-member divers, poor lock and gate management, single handed care of the property (Paul H.) and missing or incorrectly filled out waivers. Having a core group of guides solves most of these problems and also offers the occasional or out of towners a chance to visit the site with an experienced diver familiar with the site. For those that are already more than qualified to dive there, a mentoring program was incorporated into the plan to enable those people to access the site without a guide. If this plan proves to be successful, yes I would like to see it applied elsewhere. As always, anyone that wants to contact me directly to discuss this or any other CDS issue is welcome to call me or meet with me when I am in cave country

who are you?

[cavediver515]

Now, i have numerous dives in School sink and it is one of my fav's. My question is when someone has numerous dives in a system and then it becomes a guided system will that person be grandfathered in or will they still have to go on guided dives.