Drysuits... Neoprene vs. shell suits

[IowaCaveDiver]

Alright... I'm opening up a can of worms asking for opinions but here is the dilema. My girlfriend is a fairly new cave diver... currently diving wet and in sidemount but our dives are extremly limited because she gets very cold very quick resulting in calling the dives way before thirds. I've been diving for years and 4 dry suits, all shell style suits (tri-laminates and currently a crushed neoprene/laminate combo DUI) I am a fan of the shell style suit. She has been talking to a variety of people, all with varying opinions. I'm seeing a trend that older cave divers she talks to prefer neoprene suits and tell her this is best for her... newer/younger divers seem to push towards shell style suits. Here is what she has learned...

Neoprene pros:
cheaper, buoyant, *more streamlined, easy swimming, less drag

cons:
wear out faster than shells, limits undergarmets worn underneath, too much buoyancy,

Shell Suit pros:
last longer, more durable, ability to wear varying undergarmets, larger variety, suits offer more features (telescoping torso, warm neck hoods, etc), available in a variety of materials

cons:
increased drag, harder to swim in, zippers wear out quickly in front entry suits, typically more expensive,

***So, most imporant things she is considering... she is small, gets cold easily, gets tired swimming after awhile (small girl, small muscles), dives sidemount, wants be a scooter diver eventually, dives nothing but caves

What do you suggest? (i'm leaning her towards the Piannacle evolution 2)

[Kelly Jessop]

...

Neoprene pros:
cheaper, buoyant, *more streamlined, easy swimming, less drag

cons:
wear out faster than shells, limits undergarmets worn underneath, too much buoyancy,

To the pro list I would add easier to fix,and becomes a wetsuit if it floods

The con list-they are actually more durable than a shell suit in my opinion. If I bump something I don't have to worry about pin hole leaks

Bouyancy is no bigger issue than what you encounter with a wet suit

I a own trilaminate and neoprene suit,and use my neoprene suit 80% of the time. If the water temp isn't too cold,and the depth not too deep,such as a majority of cave diving,then the neoprene suit is ideal.

Brands of neoprene suits that I have become a fan of are Atlan,and Brooks.

[Me]

Fit is going to be an issue if she is small and tiny. A stock suit may not fit her and she'll end up going custom/special production. This very thing happened to a friend of mine who was short and slender. She had to go with a manufacturer with a wide range of stock sizes (DUI). I on the other hand had to go special production due to long torso and long legs.

My first suit was a neoprene "disposable" suit as the guy at Superior Drysuit Repair coined it. It was a neoprene O'Neill for $600 that I got for $300 being a DM at the shop. It was too short in the legs, but the torso worked marginally and based on the cheap price, I went with it. I sent the suit off to Superior (I live in Ohio and that's who the commercial diver guys recommended) and asked for extra length in the legs, suspenders and a latex neck seal as the neoprene neck seal was too big for me with a slender neck. (another reason I went custom) The guy at Superior called me before doing the work and told me "hey, this is a disposable suit, I'll do the extra length and the neck seal, but save your money on the suspenders and buy a DUI or Vulcan later". The O'Neill gave up the ghost after about 2 to 3 years of cave and quarry diving. On it's last trip to Florida I was fixing it every night with a hairdryer, Aquaseal and Cotol. Had to keep the windows in the hotel room open while drying so I wouldn't get high while I slept!!

I now have a DUI CLX 450 and wouldn't go back to neoprene for all the tea in China simply for the fit issues and ease of donning (hips & an hourglass shape ya know). (I would consider compressed neoprene tho, except for the ridiculous drying time....still thinking on that one) I've had the DUI now since 2001 and am saving my pennies for a new one. I had the zipper replaced last year and figure I can get another 2 to 3 years out of it before I replace with a new suit.

My buddy just got a new DUI CLX 450 to replace his old CLX last year. He got his first special production DUI a year before I did. He wouldn't go back to neoprene either. His very first drysuit was a neoprene Poseidon and go back to paragraph two for a similar description of the life of his Poseidon.

Lastly, I get COLD really really easily too. In Florida I dive 200G underwear with a inner liner of wool long underwear (1 layer of wool on the legs, 2 layers of wool on the torso). Sometimes I get a little chilly and usually pack the 400G for later in the week if need be. Here in Ohio quarries, and the Great Lakes, I wear 400G with the same wool undies.

Cave diving in Mexico will see me in my 7mm jumpsuit with 3/5 hooded vest, and a 3mm bolero and fingerless gloves....yes I get cold!

OHHHH, if your girlfriend hasn't tried it.....get 5mm neoprene gloves with gaiters on the wrist....snug as she can stand across the back and palm of the hand, finger length is not an issue. Cut off the fingers and use those in the caves. I cut off the fingers just below the second knuckle so the area where the line would rest is skin, not neo. I've found reducing the water flow up the wrists of my suit is VITAL in staying warmer in Mexico in a wetsuit. In Florida in a drysuit it's warmer too, tho no water flow. This will help alot. And the neoprene across the palm and back of hand keeping your hand warm where the blood veins are is wonderful...you wouldn't think it made much of a difference given you've cut off the fingers, but it does.

Okay, I've rambled.....but hopefully I've given you some food for thought and a suggestion or two as well.

[skdvr]

Antoher good thing about neoprene suits is that you have much less chance of a total failier from holes or rips. They will take a TON of abuse. That being said I am not a fan of how much they weigh when wet only because it makes it a bit more of a pain in the but to clean them at home, and they take for ever to dry. A good realitivly inexpensive drysuit would be the Whites Fusion. It is a great suit for anyone but expically women because it fits so tightly to hug the curves. You do not have to worry about drag in it, thats for sure. It is a bit more of a pain to get into than other shell suits but you learn quickly. Honestly if I am wearing a light undergarment (for 60* water adn warmer) I can get into my suit just as easily as anyone else getting into their trilams, but if I am wearing thicker undergarments it does take a little bit more time. Mobility you ask. Forget about because it is awesome. It truely is like wearing my 3mm wetsuit when wearing light undergarments (MK 2). I have another drysuit that I really like that is custom cut out of the CLX 450 cordura material (no name brand - still being developed) that it also extremely nice. It is always a toss up as to which I want to wear. Right now, with the thicker undergarments I go for the Cordura suit, and with thinner I go with the Fusion.

I would strongly consider the Fusion. Talk to Mike at DRIS, he sells a lot of the Fusions, and would be a good source of info...

Phil

[Sludge]

cons: increased drag, harder to swim in,

I never noticed any major difference between my well-fitting TLS-350 and a wetsuit.

zippers wear out quickly in front entry suits

My zipper lasted six years and about 300 dives.

[skip]

I dove neoprene wet suit for a couple of years, then went shell. will never go back to neoprene. I'm a small guy and and the neoprene was heavy...heavy.

as for durability I have over 500 dives on the DUI tls350. patch the socks with black neoprene cement every so often, tore a small rip in the arm and put a bit of rubber aqua-sealed to the inside and good as new by morning.... did put in a new zipper a year or two ago. By the way, bought it used - it was a rental suit and the shop was getting out of renting them. It was almost new though, must not have been rented much. I did replace the seals too, with zip seals. and i'm still diving it, the only suit I dive, fresh, open, salt, deep, caves, quarries, sidemount, backmount, summer, winter, 36F to 70F.

-skip

[Jay]

I will second Kelly's comments. I have a 5mm Atlan that swims better then a wetsuit (more flexible when kicking) and significantly less drag then any shell suit I have owned (and they are Legion... )
I would not recommend a 7 mm neoprene unless it is very cold diving.

But... the absolute key to any dry suit is fit, especially the boots.

On long scooters, long deco's, deep stuff, I will use my 905.

[MORGAN]

Tracy is 5'2" and about 130 pounds - she has a DUI CNSE compressed neoprene shell drysuit that she has had since 2001 and used for all kinds of diving. It was $900.00 new. It fits her well, keeps her warm, and is extremely durable. She also gets cold easily, but is always comfortable in this suit, even under the ice. The ability to vary undergarments is a big plus - for cold water diving she has a DUI 400 gram Thinsulate undergarment. For Florida cave diving she just wears some non-diving-specific (thus much less expensive) polypro long underwear.

She says she doesn't really notice any difference in swimming resistance between the drysuit and her 7mm wetsuits. Until last year she always dove wet in the caves, but has brought her drysuit for the last 2 trips. The last couple days we have dove in Madison and Little River, and her gas consumption seems to confirm that there's not a significant difference.

The big difference I notice during a two week period of cave diving every day is that she is more energetic and less tired overall if she's nice & warm when diving. It's great to have a cave diving spouse - worth every expense and effort to keep her warm and comfortable!

Mike

[Spd 135]

I will give another vote for neoprene. I actually though I was the oddball for wearing it, but I use what I use because I have tried and experienced gear as opposed to just doing it cause "someone said". I see I am in good company.

I have two ONeill 7mm neoprene suits. One is about 8 years old the other is two. I changed the zipper once on the older suit ($150.00 at Oneill). I also have an older TLS something DUI shell suit. I have muscular legs which became an issue when I went to sidemount. I was "way!" leg heavy in the DUI. The Neoprene suit put me in perfect trim so for me it was a no brainer. I don't go deeper than 150ish so compression / heat loss has not been an issue for me. I can wear less undergarment and still stay toasty. I am mostly diving the caves in the panhandle that stay around 68 degrees. I have had several salvage jobs this winter in Lake Pontchartrain and the water was a balmy 51 degrees. After three hours I was just starting to get a tad cool. Shell, neoprene, I guess it is just what you like better, if you are not doing the ultra deep stuff and many hour long dives.

That has been my experience, for what it is worth. Mark

[OFG-1]

I have just revisited this issue. I started diving dry with an original Posiden Unisuit. You know, with the zipper from the back through your legs to the front. It was not good for cave diving, but I used it for commercial diving for 5 1/2 years. Matt, whoever told you that a neoprene suit is not as durable as a shell suit is just wrong. You can repair one in 15 minutes with a hair dryer to dry it out.

After diving shell suits for years, I bought a Henderson 7mm suit. I can give you my pros and cons:

Con - I cannot reach the back zipper. I know this is picky, but damn it, I am used to self donning suits.
I have not installed a pee valve yet, so my time is limited. (No, I have not soiled the suit yet, but maybe tomorrow)
It is just not as easy to get into as a shell suit. You have to work the material up your legs and arms the same as a wet suit.
I have to readjust my straps to be comfortable in it. It is just thicker than the shell suit. This problem is being solved by setting up another Armadillo for this suit.

Pros - It is warmer with a light undergarment than my shell suit. A Lot warmer.
It is a LOT slicker in the water. You can notice the difference.
It does not squeeze nearly as bad.
It is easier to clean. The Harvey's clay washes right off of it.
You will not need gaiters. If the suit fits, it fits snug.

The bouyancy is not much different with 85's or larger tanks. I go someplaces that I dive 72's, and then I have to clip 3 pound weights to my sidemount tank attach points.

I am trying to sell it, i just do not like the self donning issue. A 5mm suit may be better. The Brooks custom suits that Gamble sells are really nice.