The "New" Ginnie

[guru caver]

Expect more damage, organizations/agencies are setting up publc guiding to previously unknown and pristine caves like Rock Bluff. People are being paid to take divers in to caves that most divers without a boat and a mentor to show you where it was could even get to. It won't be long and you will have to expect that more damage will be taking place due to diver pressure at all the caves. Cindy

Aren't you a guide?

[Cindy]

Aren't you a guide?

At Hart only these days. Just systems that are in need of access and there is no other way to get people there. Hart and Alachua are both large high flow caves. A big difference than a small fragile river cave. I do it as a volunteer to keep those caves open. (I suppose that's just plain stupid to some! LOL) I have on occassion mentored people in some of the river caves but have several dives with them first. I might also ad that both Hart and Alachua have ready access to emergency personel.
Most small river caves are advanced side mount dives. Almost every time you dive one of these caves you have to expect to come out of the cave in a silt out. It's just the nature of the beast. I cannot imagine taking someone I have never dived with before into a cave that is fragile, small, restrictive and requires the ability to swim, dig, crawl, long distances in a silt out. Not to mention how does one even see how much damage they are doing? So what is the purpose of the guide?
Frankly what would one do in a single file cave as a guide if someone does panic in a silt out? Both Hart and Alachua give you some room to manuver. I have been in a silt out at Alachua with someone I guided but I had enough room to manuver, grab their hand and swim out with them on the line.
There are a few accessable "training" side mount caves you can do some of this in. The caves are neither fragile nor so restrictive that it is impossible to reach your fellow diver. Rock Bluff and Convict, just to mention two of them are not a good place to take someone who is not able to function as a solo diver.
Taking people out to the river caves in a boat was abandoned as a money making project about five years ago after pressure was applied to the people involved. The complications of rescue, the damage to the cave, loss of future access to the springs, were all reasons they were asked not to do this.
To see that one of the larger cave diving agencies is sponsoring this really disappoints me. Cindy

[JDostal]

Which agency is sponsoring this idea?

[guru caver]

Taking people out to the river caves in a boat was abandoned as a money making project about five years ago after pressure was applied to the people involved. The complications of rescue, the damage to the cave, loss of future access to the springs, were all reasons they were asked not to do this.
Cindy

how do you loose access to a river cave?

[Tegg]

I have been in a silt out at Alachua with someone I guided but I had enough room to manuver, grab their hand and swim out with them on the line.

I'm sorry but that line scares me.

I would hope that someone that has the credentials to dive Alachua would not need to have their "hand held" in a siltout to get out of the cave.

I would assume that you made note of the person to the other guides so that person does not kill themselves when another guide does not choose to "hold their hand" out of the cave.

[RN]

Hopefully some of the prettier caves have endured due to reduced access or greater level of difficulty..

There are still pristine caves out there. They just take a little more effort to get to. And aren't spoken of on the forums very much. I go to quite a few of them, but you'll never see me telling people how to get to them.

[SuPrBuGmAn]

There are still pristine caves out there. They just take a little more effort to get to. And aren't spoken of on the forums very much. I go to quite a few of them, but you'll never see me telling people how to get to them.

KEY



Hell, even locations of the big river caves that are scooterable aren't really spoken of online

[Bob Cree]

it's (I hope) obviously EXTREMELY dangerous to exit even with as little as 1/3 of your gas in most cases, UNLESS you have meticulously planned an alternative.

I love taking quotes out of context...selective reasoning, lol. But this one I thought I would use to make a point. Many have bashed Andrew for his supposed lack of responsibility regarding gas management, but maybe there is merit in less than 1/3rd's on exit gas management...

What the heck! you say...

Going in - I agree, not a good idea.

Going out - Maybe?

Regardless of where we are talking, high/low/no/syphon flow - there is merit here. After you dive a particular cave enough (this is the sticky point - what is enough?) and get the experience, what is wrong with a ssslllooowww exit? The closer you get to the exit, the gas reserves build - I think this is Andrew's point...but I don't know without more information...

Take Ginnie, since that one is familiar to most, and the defacto subject of this thread. Swim dive/mainline/no stage to max penetration. Some may get to the Maple Leaf, others to Double Domes/others to Sweet Surprise/(and those rare others, even further)...but then you turn. You are back to the Maple Leaf - you of course already planned to take your time and go left down the Big/Bone Line...you can exit from there with how much gas??? Depends on the person, but if 1/3rds takes you to Double Domes, then what does that mean on exit at the Maple Leaf?

Maybe it is a good time to spend some quality time learning the front of the cave a bit more than you already do. My contention is, you can effectively and conservatively "recalculate 1/3rds" or as Andrew puts it, and ensure 2X+ or even ++ of the gas to exit and be very safe.

Beware, the Surgeon General has determined that deco time may be a bit higher for dives of this type, but learning levels may grow exponentially.

Hey Doug, I can't wait to catch an overseas flight and have you as the pilot, just so I can ask your NAMBLA supportive flight attendent for your parachute...call it appropriate bailout...

BTW - hey Gary, I was a submariner, nuclear type also. And neither of us are now...there is a reason for that. My reason is that nuclear operations are necessarily restrictive (you really need to follow the book) due the negative public nature of "nuclear" anything and I personaly prefer free thought. People see "nuclear" as dangerous, and thus in need of great oversight and one way thinking. Not a bad parallel with cave diving perhaps, but I feel exceptionally free when cave diving and absolutely restricted when operating a nuclear power plant...thus FWIW, I don't find a parallel with nuclear power and cave diving accident analysis because cave diving does NOT have to take into consideration the general population that might be affected by my decisions as a cave diver, unlike my decisions as an EOOW.

[Cindy]

I'm sorry but that line scares me.

I would hope that someone that has the credentials to dive Alachua would not need to have their "hand held" in a siltout to get out of the cave.

I would assume that you made note of the person to the other guides so that person does not kill themselves when another guide does not choose to "hold their hand" out of the cave.

You should be scared. He had 150 dives...You just never know until you go. Cindy

[Cindy]

how do you loose access to a river cave?

Although I enjoy the agitation you are trying to promote you should know this answer. How did we lose access to Telford, Morgans for a while and sandbag?
Disrespect, agitation of owners, concern over accidents on their property etc etc.
If someone is lost on a dive in the spring on any property then it will be very difficult to convence any landowner to allow land access in the future.
Take someone in there like my pal at Alachua that suddenly discovers he has never really had to swim in a total silt out. Now he has to swim 400 feet out in a restrictive cave by touch only and panics. Cut the landowners fence to get the body out. Have the papers write a few stories about it.
What you are dealing with here is not only the safety aspect but a conservation aspect. And guess what, I get to talk about it here even if no one listens in other places.