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  1. #61
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    Alexandria Bay, NY; Mt. Pocono, PA; Riviera Beach, FL
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    Cave divers may often find themselves susceptible to the same trap that mountain climbers face once they've reached their goal. For a climber, reaching the summit provides a false sense of completion because the climb is only half over. On the summit, the most dangerous and critical part of the climb, the descent, still lies ahead. For the cave diver, the goal, often involving maximum penetration, may be reached due to pre-established gas rules, time, or by having reached a destination or fulfilled a task. Adventurers are often sharp in the goal-seeking phase. For the cave diver, the trip into the cave is the goal-seeking phase in which senses are heightened and the mind is focused and ready for the worst case scenarios such as a catastrophic gas loss at maximum penetration based upon gas reserves. As distance from the exit and/or depth increases, stresses build heightening awareness. On the way out, cave divers may experience a deescalating mental and emotional response as thoughts turn toward home. A diver may not be focusing on where he or she is because his or her thoughts may be on decompression, fulfilling hunger and thirst, or other concerns at the surface. Environmental conditions such as outward flow (possibly increasing exit speed) may give a diver a false sense of security, increasing the danger he or she faces should an emergency occur as gas supply is lessened. Fatigue may create sloppy technique, buddy separation or team breakdown. The diver may be distracted by thoughts not related to the here and now and may even be just "line following" with less attention paid to relevant environmental, team, personal or equipment issues. Two rules for outdoor survival are: Be here now and Everything takes 8 times longer than it's supposed to take. Cave divers, like mountaineers, would do well to stay focused as much on the trip home as on the way to the goal and give themselves plenty of time to solve problems such as OOG or lost off the line. The Rule of (Simple) Thirds, I believe for myself, is the minimum safety margin. Alone, this gives me one third in, one third out and leaves one third in reserve to solve various problems. In a team situation, it gives us enough gas to get out in a catastrophic failure at maximum penetration with no margin of error to solve any other problems along the way. Most often, I incorporate rock bottom or minimum gas, into my planning and I'll even save enough gas for decompression on back gas in addition to the gas volume required to exit assuming a failure at max penetration.

    Trace Malinowski
    "Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    Forrest,

    I didn't know it was determined that Sheck Exley or Steve Berman running out of gas was the primary cause of their deaths ?
    I would say no gas is always the *primary* cause of death. Why they ran out is a different issue, but if they had a larger reserve, they might not have run out.

    The thing those guys had in common was "goal oriented" diving. That is the main reason a lot of divers cut corners.

    FWIW, I agree with Tracey, thirds should be the minimum safe air rule.

    Current *may* leave you with extra gas at the end of the dive. In some types of emergencies, such as silt, light failure, etc., current can actually slow you down. If you don't belive me, try scootering in low vis.

    Last edited by FW; 12-01-2008 at 05:06 AM.
    Forrest Wilson (with 2 Rs)
    Any opinions are personal.
    Sump Divers

  3. #63
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    High Springs Florida
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    In the history of cave diving no one has ever died because they came back with too much air
    Michael Angelo

    Www.artflowslikewater.com
    Brendan's Law - "Know what you're breathing. Analyze your gas for O2 and Co. Analyze your gas each time, everytime, anywhere."

  4. #64
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    I was just browsing through my full cave text from IANTD last night, under the gas planning/management chapter. I think it was printed around 2000?

    I don't remember reading it back in the day, but there is a whole page dedicated to modifying thirds depending on conditions. Hate to resurrect an old thread but I just thought it was interesting, based on the discussion here. Not saying I advocate it or anything but it was/is being taught by one agency.

    Of course my test also devotes a lot of time to talking about chakras as well, so take it with a grain of salt

    The guideline given is that an individual should have at least 100 cave dives and at least 25 dives in the system that gas plans are being modified for. The text goes on to basically state that as long as the dive is finished with one third of the starting air in the tanks it is okay to modify the gas planning accordingly.

    Everyone spends the first nine months of life in water. The lucky ones make frequent return visits.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo View Post
    In the history of cave diving no one has ever died because they came back with too much air
    Michael Angelo
    Hmmmm...Not sure I agree with exactly what you are saying. Deceased divers have been brought to the surface ("come back") with usable gas in their tanks -- enough gas to get back to the surface.


  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeepSea View Post
    Hmmmm...Not sure I agree with exactly what you are saying. Deceased divers have been brought to the surface ("come back") with usable gas in their tanks -- enough gas to get back to the surface.
    More to the point, it's just silly. Let's do a few more:

    No one has ever died because:

    - They carried a "buddy bottle" even though diving with a buddy
    - They took 10 backup lights
    - They analyzed their gas 18 times

    And most important

    - They decided not to dive at all.

    All these are true. And useless.

    For example, if you take that statement seriously where do you want to turn? 1/4's? 1/6's/ 1/12's? 3 breaths?

    Good grief.

    On the comment about finishing with 1/3 in the tanks, I do occasionally exit with less than that. Tell me, why is THAT a good number? Like many "rules of thumb", that thumb had just been removed from someone's ass, which is where they really pulled the rule from.

    That said, it's (I hope) obviously EXTREMELY dangerous to exit even with as little as 1/3 of your gas in most cases, UNLESS you have meticulously planned an alternative. It should be obvious from what I posted higher up that I have a LOT of additional gas cached in the cave when I do this stuff.

    My biggest suggestion to people is, THINK. And in most cases, if you think carefully, you'll realize that thirds is only an adequate rule in high flow caves, or in caves like Peacock with multilpe exit points. Anywhere else you'd better be MORE conservative than thirds.

    OK, I'm done on this topic 9at least this iteration ). Once more I'm being bombarded with PM's about this, and I have to agree that the LAST thing I want is to have someone go off on a half assed plan and kill themselves because they haven't properly planned their reserves.

    Last edited by aainslie; 12-03-2008 at 03:15 PM.
    Andrew Ainslie

    Almost extinct cave diver

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie View Post
    ..... the LAST thing I want is to have someone go off on a half assed plan and kill themselves because they haven't properly planned their reserves.
    Or read it on the internet.....

    Meng Tze
    -Homo Bonae Voluntatis

  8. #68
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    what a shame about the destruction, but it's not surprising.. I read a post here not too long ago where a guy said his first dive past the hinkle took him through the scraper to the end of the gold line and I just shook my head..

    From what I remember, I think the last "cornflake" was destroyed in 1996 or '97, and the last "bone" in the bone tunnel disappeared around the same time. The destruction of the double lines area happened around '98, which was around the same time gauge marks were showing up in the clay banks at cow.

    I haven't been up into mainland since 1999 or 2000, but I find it amazing to think that people would ride scooters in there now. Why?? You could easily scooter to the start of mainland, drop your stage bottle and swim the entire section on doubles.

    Maybe I should just be happy that I don't dive anymore and that I can't see how trashed these places have gotten.

    edited: I was asked to remove some comments about a pretty section of cave in Lee County to keep it hidden from internet n00bs.

    Hopefully some of the prettier caves have endured due to reduced access or greater level of difficulty..


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
    what a shame about the destruction, but it's not surprising..
    Maybe I should just be happy that I don't dive anymore and that I can't see how trashed these places have gotten.

    I'm afraid to see what's happened in Madison at the Court Yard, the last time I went there you could drive a truck through potters delight. Hopefully some of the prettier caves have endured due to reduced access or greater level of difficulty..
    Expect more damage, organizations/agencies are setting up publc guiding to previously unknown and pristine caves like Rock Bluff. People are being paid to take divers in to caves that most divers without a boat and a mentor to show you where it was could even get to. It won't be long and you will have to expect that more damage will be taking place due to diver pressure at all the caves. Cindy

    "Philosophy is a purely personal matter. A genuine philosopher's credo is the outcome of a single complex personality; it cannot be transferred. No two persons, if sincere, can have the same philosophy."
    --Havelock Ellis

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy View Post
    Expect more damage, organizations/agencies are setting up publc guiding to previously unknown and pristine caves like Rock Bluff. People are being paid to take divers in to caves that most divers without a boat and a mentor to show you where it was could even get to. It won't be long and you will have to expect that more damage will be taking place due to diver pressure at all the caves. Cindy
    What??!??!??

    Aww crap.



 

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