The "New" Ginnie

[BabyDuck]

let me peek in to just say that mike o'leary was very clear - the thirds rule is for emergencies, not getting your buddy out from the furthest reaches. yes, if a massive gas loss is the emergency, that's what you use the rest of the gas for, but that third is *not for your buddy*, it is for *emergencies*.

what, if your buddy is lost off the line you're not gonna go into your emergency reserve to look for him/her because that gas is theirs and they aren't there begging for it???

[Gary]

One of the basic tenets of the scientific method is testing theory in two ways - public debate (via peer review), and empiricism via testing. I've done both - although I DO wish I could find a peer to review what I'm doing instead of you.

Sounds great. Why don't you write up you methods and send them to the Ginnie Management, one or more Cave Diving Certification Agencies and Jerry.

And you ought to make up your mind whether to claim you are "massively violating thirds" or only "technically violating thirds" and either way you should not promote it online.

[cavediver256]

Damn where is the popcorn when you need it???

[aainslie]

Sounds great. Why don't you write up you methods and send them to the Ginnie Management, one or more Cave Diving Certification Agencies and Jerry.

Why would Ginnie management care? And I don't write them up because of people like you. Which is pretty much what I pointed out a few pages ago.

And there's no reason why I can't use both qualifiers - I'm technically massively violating thirds.

[FW]

Why would Ginnie management care? And I don't write them up because of people like you. Which is pretty much what I pointed out a few pages ago.

And there's no reason why I can't use both qualifiers - I'm technically massively violating thirds.

Hmmm, let's see:

My good friend Sheck Exley ran out of gas.

Steve Berman, the same

Ron Simmons, ditto

Do you see a pattern?

[BobK]

Hmmm, let's see:

My good friend Sheck Exley ran out of gas.

Steve Berman, the same

Ron Simmons, ditto

Do you see a pattern?

Forrest,

I didn't know it was determined that Sheck Exley or Steve Berman running out of gas was the primary cause of their deaths ?

[BobK]

You need to learn to only speak about things you know.

That would pretty much shut down forums across the Internet, wouldn't it ?

[allen]

Andrew is correct: One must turn the dive when the remaining gas is 2R+N, where R is the gas needed to get out and N is a reasonable safety margin. Someone like Andrew who dives Ginnie every weekend may actually know the value of R to 3 significant figures and have a good idea what N is. Those of us who dive less often don't really know what R is. Our gas consumption varies, and Ginnie's flow (and Peacock's flow, and Little River's flow) varies. I would need to waste an entire vacation simulating disasters to get any idea of the magnitude of N. A great deal of experience has shown that 2R+N is pretty close to 1/3 of starting gas supply in a spring cave. Thus we vacation divers dive the rule of thirds. We also stay the h... out of syphons where 2R+N is greater than 1/3 of starting air, and we haven't a prayer of calculating it. The Rule of Thirds originated in a calculation. The calculation turns out to have a false assumption (no flow). The Rule of Thirds is retained for the empirical reason that it works for 99% of us 99% of the time. (Columbus' voyage was based on a false assumption about the distance to China. The voyage was repeated because it got somewhere.)

[MengTze]

Do you see a pattern?

I would pose that over 90% of cave deaths ultimately ran out of gas.......

(and I say this with the utmost respect I have for you Forrest)

[allen]

Reviewing my post above: I should have said 2R+N is pretty close to 2/3 of starting gas. I am a little mathematically challenged. This is why I stick to the rule of thirds.