Indeed, good observation.Originally Posted by OneBrightGator
Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
Indeed, good observation.
It's bad luck to be superstitious.
Damn good idea. I'll give it a shot.
There are a couple of lurking demons there too though. My planning included working out how to massively violate thirds without violating doubles (i.e. always having double the gas needed to exit the cave). I suspect that NACD or CDS journals wouldn't like hearing my theories on that stuff. I've put a bit of it on this website but that's only scratching the surface. So even the planning discussion would have to be a bit vague.
Still, thanks for the idea. I'll see what I can do.
Regards,
Andrew
Last edited by aainslie; 11-21-2008 at 02:24 PM.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
It is amazing that some divers think no one will know in Ginnie.
About a year ago we did the circuit up the Sweet Surprise and out the Main Land. Were we ever surprised that the entire Main Land had zero vis, as we later found out that an inexperienced diver had been in there with a DPV. What a shame and what a potentially life threatening situation for us as we had to get out zeroing the line -- proof that it pays to have your stage bottles clamped to the cave line.
A month ago we decided to do the Hill 400 to Double Domes run at Ginnie. I almost cried when I saw what had been done to the Hillier Tunnel -- people had been walking all over the floor. Sad, very sad.
Both cases of diving beyond a diver's capability. Then, there is the deliberate destruction like at the clay banks in Cow.
Maybe the agencies are passing out cave instrutor cards too freely. I know the old timers are stressing taking care of the caves to their students, at least in the USA.
Then there are the group excursions in Mexico...well, that's another story.
Glad you posted. We need to talk more about taking care of the things we value. Maybe it will rub off on those who don't.
Regards,
Bill
That is relative....
Meng Tze
-Homo Bonae Voluntatis
Please do write it!
Andrew, I've read with interest about the exploration, controversy, and now, unfortunately, the end result. Not trying to be flippant, but in reading the start of this post, I was reminded of the commercials of the Indian with a tear running down his face at the sight of all the trash on the road.
You don't know me, but I'd just like add my encouragement to you writing this up, lessons learned, conservation, and not exceeding your skill level. To that end, I think it would be beneficial to explain how many dives in Ginnie alone you made to get to your level of accomplishment. Good luck!
LOL! I've had similar thoughts.
-Tom
Not smart at all Andrew. When you initially posted that you did your dive "not using thirds" I assumed you were saying you left extra safety bottles around - not that you pushed your thirds massively relying on the flow to get you out.
It's bad enough advertising the back of the cave to bring other divers to screw it up - but to actively try to kill yourself back there forcing other divers to drag your body out of the distant reaches of (once) unspoiled cave is incredibly dangerous and irresponsible.
You're guessing. By all means take potshots if you know what I'm doing, but you have no basis to make that comment.
I've had a few minor failures or issues making tanks unusable. they're never more than a minor inconvenience.
But thanks for making my point about why talking about that aspect of planning would not be well taken.
Last edited by aainslie; 11-21-2008 at 06:10 PM.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
3rds
The whole premise behind thirds is to have double the gas that you and your buddy need to get to deco (obviously deco requires planning in itself). If planned correctly and one of your team looses all of their gas, in theory you could both exit safely.
When it comes to dive planning, 3rds is a guideline, not a hard fast rule......you don't plan 3rds if diving a siphon do you?
I am with Andrew on this one, having double the required gas to exit seems responsible. Especially considering how hard it would be to have a major gas loss when diving with stages/sidemount versus doubles. This is where learning to do the dive, through experience in the same system comes in handy in planning more extensive dives. I am sure Andrew put his time in.
Gary (and Andrew) you guys should stop taking every shot at each other that you can. I think if you look at things with a little detachment, you both care a lot about the same things, and have more in common than you are willing to admit.
I am sorry to hear it is getting beat up back there, I have been amazed at how fast damage is happening in easier to get to places.
Rusty
About once a year I send PMs to a couple of people (different each time) where I say the same thing.
Whoever said money can't buy love never bought a puppy.
This is not a simple matter of cave conservation - but a very dangerous philosophy when used to dive past thirds as Andrew proposes (and does). I had assumed until Andrew's post that these dangerous practices had not been used in the new exploration (and had perhaps been entirely abandoned). To find that they are actually in use on these dives is a grave concern.
If this practice had been known to the landowners and managers at Ginnie Springs there is absolutely no chance he would have been admitted to the park.
There is no need to guess at specifics of the dive. Andrew's thoughts on "Modifying Thirds" is detailed elsewhere in this forum:
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...0579#post50579
And when Andrew says "I suspect that NACD or CDS journals wouldn't like hearing my theories on that stuff" it isn't a very wild guess at all. Very likely no cave diving agency would support his theories when it comes to diving past thirds as he has stated more then once he does - including his pushes back into the new section.
It is very sad that a statement such as "working out how to massively violate thirds" finds anyone who will speak in it's defense.
Last edited by Gary; 11-22-2008 at 12:24 AM.
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