Rewarding Good Behavior

[BabyDuck]

but, deepsea, the agencies *do* do this for us. i think that's part of what perrone's saying. cave is seen as the end point. even if you only want to do basic/intro dives, you need to go further to dive doubles at ginnie or go beyond sixths or dive places that require an abe davis. those are the rules the agencies have set up (for the most part, i know some are slightly different).

[Forman's Kid]

Maybe we can start rewarding instructors who take the time to really teach a student. No more "Get you full cave certification in 8 days". I know we have some really good instructors out there, but can one really learn and have the experience needed to be a safe cave diver. Maybe this would weed out some of the folks out there who want to become zero to hero.

[battles2a5]

So unless you are full cave, you are unwelcome in the caves. Fair enough. So let's do away with the stepping stones. I took full cave when I did my class. All 8 days including a day of rest to go help build steps at Emerald. I didn't pass full cave because with my SAC rate at the time, I could not complete the circuit at Peacock. I could easily do it now, but have chosen to simply dive to my comfort level, within my limits.

My instructor understood my desires, and was quite happy to let me do what I am doing. We dive together a couple times a year, and he evaluates my skills. He is encouraging me to finish up my training, and I keep resisting. Maybe I should stop pushing rocks uphill and just take the training and be done with it.

That's not what I mean at all. And how did you get that I want to get rid of the stepping stones? I think they are absolutely necessary, but I also think it is important to reinforce the message that an "intro" cert is just that; an introduction to what lies ahead in your training. Have been through the 8 day course yourself, I am sure you can appreciate the value in progressing gradually through the system as your skills develop. But I think a "full" cave diver is better prepared to conduct any cave dive, regardless of the penetration or what lines you are traveling along.

[RN]

Attitude and discipline used to be prerequisites for technical training...

You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

[PerroneFord]

That's not what I mean at all. And how did you get that I want to get rid of the stepping stones?

I didn't say you wanted to get rid of them. However, the prevailing thought seems to be that they are essentially worthless unless you progress on to full cave.

but I also think it is important to reinforce the message that an "intro" cert is just that; an introduction to what lies ahead in your training.

I disagree. Nothing has to "lie ahead" in my training. It should certainly be up to the diver whether or not they choose to pursue further training. And as such, if the basic/intro cert cannot stand on it's own, or be valued on it's own, then it should be eliminated.

Have been through the 8 day course yourself, I am sure you can appreciate the value in progressing gradually through the system as your skills develop.

This of course assumes that one WANTS to progress through the system. On most days I am perfectly happy to explore the cavern area. In fact, some of my most enjoyable dives have just been puttering about in the cavern with friends. There is no stress, no significant gas concerns, etc. It's so refreshing to do that. I have absolutely ZERO desire to progress pass 2000ft in ANY cave anywhere in the world. As I told my instructor a couple of days ago. Right now 1500ft is my personal limit on penetration.

I can certainly appreciate that MY desires are not common and thus we can't extrapolate them to everyone. However, I will disagree that the idea of taking the full cave course should be the goal of everyone who pursues cave training.

But I think a "full" cave diver is better prepared to conduct any cave dive, regardless of the penetration or what lines you are traveling along.

This may well be true. Just as a mechanical engineer may well be more prepared to do basic algebra than an algebra student. But not everyone who studies math wants to be an engineer. And tey should be marginalized for not wanting to pursue that path. What I don't understand is why some people cannot accept that not everyone wants to go further in the caves. Not everyone wants to leave the main line. Not everyone wants to push limits.

I have a host of hobbies. I enjoy golf, but I am not interested in trying to get to a single digit handicap. I enjoy videography, but I don't want to shoot for Natl. Geo. I enjoy climbing, but I am not going to scale everest. And I enjoy cave diving, but I am not going to be adding virgin line anywhere. These things are not goals for me. And I suspect they are not goals for countless others. Some people just enjoy a casual swim up the mainline taking in the beauty and splendor of underwater caves. And if you are going to try to convince me that I need a full cave cert to swim 1500ft up the mainline of most of our tourist caves, you've got your work cut out for you.

[netmage]

You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

I agree, and I'd say this is why zero-> hero classes are a bad idea... you can impart the knowledge to be a cave diver, but its certainly not enough time to establish the wisdom to make a great one...

Thats why my suggestions and comments have focused around mentoring....

[battles2a5]

I have a host of hobbies. I enjoy golf, but I am not interested in trying to get to a single digit handicap. I enjoy videography, but I don't want to shoot for Natl. Geo. I enjoy climbing, but I am not going to scale everest. And I enjoy cave diving, but I am not going to be adding virgin line anywhere. These things are not goals for me. And I suspect they are not goals for countless others. Some people just enjoy a casual swim up the mainline taking in the beauty and splendor of underwater caves. And if you are going to try to convince me that I need a full cave cert to swim 1500ft up the mainline of most of our tourist caves, you've got your work cut out for you.

I'm not telling you need to be full cave to swim the mainline. I'm saying that you will be better equiped to do it. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this one.

[TraceMalin]

Just an update. Rather than reward good behavior I think we've decided to use code reds and violence against bad behavior.

Reminds me of an RSTC meeting.

[EGIB]

You don't think this is easy to fake? Show the right attitude and discipline for 8 days. Tell your instructor you will follow all the rules and be conservative. Then the first day out of class leave the primary reel in the truck and break 1/3s to make your goal.

I'm sure a lot of us have been duped by people who display conservative attitudes. I know I have.

"full" cave should not be the goal of an open water diver. Cavern should be the goal of an open water diver. I took cavern/intro thinking I might fail them both. I just wanted to try my best, get a taste of what it was all about. I had no intention of ever moving on to apprentice and full until after I took the first two classes...and boy did I have a lot of work to do to get ready for them.

What is wrong with just taking a cavern/intro/basic class and stopping there? I think for people who really are going to stay in their limitations, don't necessarily live close to cave country, and want to apply the skills to different sects of diving this is a great option. Being pressured into apprentice and cave can lead to inexperienced divers who are "qualified" to do traverses, circuits, etc.

[icestac]

Rather than reward good behavior I think we've decided to use code reds and violence against bad behavior.

Best idea so far!

~Jeff