Sorry, I respectfully disagree, I think this is one of those 'tough love' situations..., not resolved by the continuous throwing of accolades...
I'd just as soon have intro level done away with as 'certifications' as opposed to learners permits along the lines of learning to drive.... i.e. your only allowed behind the wheel w/ another licensed driver (full cave or instructor), and the responsibility\mentor-ship to hold you to those limitations.
This kind of illustrates my point about the negative attitude towards divers who are learning the ropes ... er ... lines. Divers are pushed into full cave with the idea that somehow learning isn't worthy of respect and they don't matter until they've arrived and proved they can do full cave skills.Originally Posted by netmage
Prevalent attitudes:
Edit: profanity-laced diatribe deleted. To the poster: replacing one letter of a profanity with an asterisk does not change the spirit of the profanity. It is not allowed on this forum. - Russell
What you call a diatribe was humor, Russel, and was placed there with smiley faces to make people laugh and think. I really wish you just told me to clean up the S-word rather than delete those 10 typical attitudes undeniably present in cave country. Or ... does truth hurt the guilty?
Edit: PM sent - Russell
Last edited by Sludge; 11-17-2008 at 03:11 PM.
Trace Malinowski
"Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux
Just to be clear... I wasn't calling anyone ****.... but we do need to stay on message, completing full cave is the goal... yes, you can do alot of stuff at the intro\basic levels..., but jedi you are not, until training completed you have....
I'm just saying a more institutionalized/encouraged approach to mentoring should/would be far more beneficial to someone learning than yet another wakulla\abe davis like recognition...
Last edited by Sludge; 11-17-2008 at 11:41 AM.
And to me this is the problem.
Do we tell OW divers that their "training isn't complete" until they become a dive master and finish trimix? Do we tell wreck divers they aren't complete until they dive the Doria?
Full Cave is NOT the goal. At least not for some of us. Not as the class currently stands. There is NOTHING in the Full Cave class that cannot be completed in the first 1000ft of some cave systems. But as set up, full cave is tailored to those looking to do longer and more complicated dives. Not everyone wants to go there.
Why can't we allow someone to explore a site like Indian without a full cave card? If someone has 1000 safe cave dives in various systems are they suddenly a crappy diver because they enter Indian? Or Cathedral, or Emerald, or whatever other restricted site you care to mention?
As long as the cave agencies restrict sites based on completing a cert level and not based on skill, then the attitude of belittling divers based on lower certs irrespective of skills or abilities, will continue. I think we are rewarding divers for the wrong things. And we seem to be amazed when divers with less than a year under their belt are scootering 4000ft into systems and earning the safe cave dive awards in 12-16 month times.
I could finish my full in December and have 100 dives done by June. And I'd barely have to leave the county to do it. Would that make me a much better or safer diver? I've spoken to both the CDS and NACD Presidents about this to some degree. But the fact remains, as long as the community chooses to limit or punish divers who have not achieved a cert level, rather than reward skills and attitudes, we will continue to see people doing crap they do.
Trace's idea of rewarding skill is a nice one. But unfortunately, it won't gain any traction. Not everyone wants a pat on the back for doing things in a safe manner. I certainly don't. I'd just like to be able to dive. As I told Cal Jamison, I helped construct the steps at Emerald, but I can't dive there. Not even in the OW, where FSU used to do OW cert dives. I live 30 minutes from Indian, and I can't even put my toe in the water.
Sadly, this is just the way things are.
Last edited by Sludge; 11-17-2008 at 12:07 PM.
netmage, i disagree. for *me*, a goal is full cave, but that's not true for everyone. many are satisfied with cavern or basic/intro. hell, i would be too if it weren't for the 'no doubles at ginnie / 1/6' rules.
and i don't think full makes you a jedi automatically.
though i agree about the mentoring! that *would* be better, but with few exceptions, most full folks don't go out of their way to be available for it. (thank you, jean & bobby & jason & bob, for being there for me.)
trace, i like it. i think the 'prize' should be cover admission to and maybe some help with travel and lodging for the annual convention(s) where it would be given. and maybe a guided dive. i think it should be open for anyone with any cert from nacd/gui/nss-cds/tdi/any i missed except padi because i've seen one of their cavern classes and just...no. i think the candidates should be nominated, and that anyone can nominate - instructors, tank monkeys, regular ol' buddies. i don't know about actual selection - might be hard for a committee who might not know every candidate, and i'd hate to see it be a 'who you know' kinda thing. maybe every nominee submit a paragraph responding to questions? maybe every nominee is secretly videoed? that's tricky, either way. maybe every nominator has to get a certain number of agreeing signatures? maybe *every* nominee who satisfies the requirements gets the award?
human nature - we'll strive for reward harder than we'll work to avoid punishment.
proud cave tourist!
Your mixing examples...
If you want to dive the Doria, a DM cert is irrelevant... Trimix would certainly be advised by the community, tho, nothing is to stop you from buying your own boat and diving it on air.... just like the community is advocating cave training..., yet there is nothing from stopping an OW diver from pulling up a canoe and go dive Ginnie on their own...
If you want to dive in a cave, then cave diver certification should be the goal..... cavern, intro\basic, apprentice are simply stepping stones to that end... a way to break the training progression into manageable and experience building chunks...
If that's as far as you wanna take it - that's fine, but don't come complaining about the limitations posed by landowners and property managers for site access....
ps. my jedi reference was there to fit the training quote - not that full cave = elite ******
Last edited by Sludge; 11-17-2008 at 02:55 PM.
I think the point that Perrone is trying to make is that a full cave card isn't the end that defines a "fully trained cave diver". Like any other certificiation, full cave is a license to learn. You don't wake up after your last day of training suddenly prepared to tackle any dive that you can swim on back gas. Just like you don't walk away from a trimix cert ready to dive the doria.
_____________________________________________
Ryan Battles
Oh, sure! You didn't get your post edited and deleted because you changed 2 letters and then went ebonic. I see how the game is played now!
No, I'm a schoolteacher and lunch was over. I was starting to edit his post when the bell rang. - Russell
Last edited by Sludge; 11-17-2008 at 02:57 PM.
Trace Malinowski
"Through all of my seasons and all of the reasons, I've stayed on this circuit for me." - Chris Ledoux
No; Peronne is advocating letting people do basic or intro and call it a day, and get full access to any and all publicly accessible sites...... so long as we trust them to stick to the limitations defined by their certification level\standard.... cuz like that's clearly been working...
Maybe you're right. And maybe those without a full cave cert deserve to be pissed on by the community. Fine by me. I do the dives I want to do, and I am comfortable where I am.
I don't complain. Frankly, I could care less. I just find the irony interesting and worth pointing out. I have plenty of access to sites both public and private to keep me happy. The fact remains that our community has little interest in rewarding divers who do things right, and far more interest in slamming those who do stuff wrong. I've just come to accept this is the way things are.
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