Woohoo, congrats Andrew.... :)

[Arnold Mesiser]

Like have said in the past "caves are not baseball diamonds" or in this case restaurants.So what if there are a million people taking cave diving,is there an implied right that they should be told where all caves and passages are?

I was grateful to any experienced cave diver/cave diver that chose to share new caves/data with me.

I applaud anyone who takes the time to map caves as accurately as they are able as it will benefit science and cavers/cave divers.Yes there will be human impact in doing so but at least it brings back something of value as a balance.

The internet and caves is just going to happen now,especially with a large portion of people using them as their primary means of communication.I think that is fine as long as people are prudent.Dissemination of information is a good thing in the proper context.

[OneBrightGator]

Fight Club people... damn-o!

You don't become a "member of the good-ol-boy club" on the internet. You wanna be a cave diver? Go cave diving, talk to people face to face there, amazing things will happen.

[Gary]

Some guy goes diving - feels big about it - puts a sign-in sheet.
Someone hears about it - feels the need to answer - dies.
Someone else feels the need to go next - feels big about it - posts it on the internet/writes an article - publishes a map...

The problem isn't that Andrew did it. It's the idiots who will read about it and follow that are the problem. It doesn't help that may of them will not have the skill and will try to drive scooters through a challenging sidemount passage - in backmount - with stages.

But whatever... I know I was idealistic about such things myself once. In a few years Andrew will look back on his "early days" and think much differently. Welcome to the club Andrew.

[aainslie]

If anyone is taking scooters in there they're really mad. It's way too small. In fact I wonder how the hell you'd get it past the first restriction. And forget doubles.

Anyway go chat to Larry, Deborah and Rich. Perhaps you can convince them not to publish it. I promise that if you do convince them, I'll not publish it elsewhere.

[MengTze]

Give it a rest Gary will you? That 'cave is under threat from invading inferior divers' spiel is getting old, even on this board.

If one so strongly feels about that protection from damage and massive traffic, why won't they stop the sale of maps, stop cave training sales and above all please do stop the sale of cave diving equipment.

Because regardless of anything there will always be better divers than any one, and far worse too.

There is an old Taiost saying: 'He who can not forgive his neighbor for being different than he is, is very far from the path of wisdom.' In stead of dreading the devastation of the cave, think about that once in a while. It takes away the urge to come across as imposing solely ones own views on the world.

(of course I am aware of the opening I leave with this myself)

[fixxervi6]

Well Andrew your not my favorite person by a long shot, but if you did what I think you did my hat is off to you, congrats.

[MengTze]

Well Andrew your not my favorite person by a long shot, but if you did what I think you did my hat is off to you, congrats.

Now that is a man with a spine and character. My hat off to you!

[jj1987]

Some guy goes diving - feels big about it - puts a sign-in sheet.
Someone hears about it - feels the need to answer - dies.
Someone else feels the need to go next - feels big about it - posts it on the internet/writes an article - publishes a map...

The problem isn't that Andrew did it. It's the idiots who will read about it and follow that are the problem. It doesn't help that may of them will not have the skill and will try to drive scooters through a challenging sidemount passage - in backmount - with stages.

But whatever... I know I was idealistic about such things myself once. In a few years Andrew will look back on his "early days" and think much differently. Welcome to the club Andrew.

Gary,

It's real obvious that you feel those of us who are newer cave divers are ruining your caves. The nss-cds has put a pamphlet out about cave conservation, and published a pdf online. Instructors have incorporated lecture on this into their coursework. Obviously there is not enough being done in your mind. Have you considered joining up with the NACD and NSS-CDS events to offer a cave conservation lecture or maybe guided dives? You can make your own website accusing divers of ruining the caves, but that won't help. Maybe time would be better spent with a guided teaching dive or lecture with video?

Now, don't get me wrong, I've heard instructors first hand telling students to kick off cave walls, using ceiling walks (although there ARE situations when I can see this as less damaging than pulling), and just this weekend, allowing students to kneel in the silt while tying into a jump....things that are certainly frowned upon. I came to the game too late to see the cornflakes when they looked like cornflakes, or the mud flats when they weren't littered with fin marks hand prints and stage drags. I really appreciate your efforts, however if you are truly dedicated to preserving the caves, I think there are better methods to go about it....I know those who have dove with me have given me tips, and I implement them. If you'll consider it, I'm sure lots of us would gladly listen to any tips you have to share, or skills you'd like to demonstrate, and maybe as a return, you could see the caves you obviously love stop getting damaged? Complaining on line certainly hasn't helped. I've heard from mutual friends of ours that you not only post about it online, but you "walk the walk" too, when you dive so to speak, maybe you can convert this dedication towards something that will pay off, rather than wasting your time talking about an issue that 99.999% of us are already frustrated about.

[Gary]

It's real obvious that you feel those of us who are newer cave divers are ruining your caves.

Certainly not. I'm sure it's an extremely few real wackos that do the vast majority of the damage. But obviously I didn't believe cautions from "elders" 10 years ago and it won't work on you all either now.


So let me get the show back on the road:

Congratulations Andrew!!! Great dive! Can't wait to read about it!

[Dave]

Have any of you considered the irony of "laying line" and then trying to keep it a secret?