When was that, 1492? In the 40 or so years I have been caving, nobody released a map, until they were "sure" there was no more virgin passage in the cave. Florida is very rare, in that *anyone* can buy a book with cave locations. In most states, you have to join the state cave survey to get locations, and even then the newest, unexplored, caves aren't listed.Originally Posted by aainslie
Oh, it's already on my map - just not with any real detail.
As you said yourself Jeff's Map being sold to the public was probably the worst damage creator to the Devil's System in a long time (just as the earlier maps were). The additional attention granted to this "new" passage won't benefit it much either.
Yeah - that was a counter-example to try to get people to think if their ire against Terry for making a video was warranted. it didn't mean that I believed maps were bad. I make most of my videos public and intend to do so with maps. And there's no way you have everything on your map. It's growing too fast. My map is already outdated.
Anyway, who exactly is going to get back there? My last dive took 9 stages, 4 of them permanent safeties, some non-standard gas planning techniques (DEFINITELY not thirds! but definitely doubles!) and involved a 2 hour deco. Most people just aren't interested in dealing with those logistics. It's a serious PITA dive.
Anyway Forrest, then so be it - I intend to do something different. I don't get to Florida tht often. I think it would be fantastic if some young people (and that's mainly who's going back there right now) got to benefit from the data I collected, and add new line in virgin cave off existing line, mapping it as they go. I've already given data out to one such person.
Last edited by aainslie; 09-25-2008 at 10:14 AM.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
No one is belittling your dive. Congratulations. Thats a great accomplishment.
Don't get me wrong I'm as eager to read about it as the next guy. But in what way does posting/writing about it benefit anything? After the divers death there it was said it was best left forgotten. Probably true.
Last edited by Gary; 09-25-2008 at 10:28 AM.
Ok Gary- even I get your point, but posting about it is a good thing- Taking the time and effort to work a dive like that is advancing the sport- As usual, exploration is what this is all about- If andrew wants to talk about his corner of advancing the sport, more power to him- It's hard work, and he's right, as soon as you have to make a set up dive, 95% of the divers out there wont do it, so his area is safe. Let's hear about his accomplishments, and applaud him for continuing exploration instead of swimming back and forth in front of the destroyed silt dunes at Cow.
Wow- and somehow I missed your last sentence- Since when does someone croaking on a project mean that exploration should stop? Geez- that doesn't speak well for the dead, does it. I'm sure THEY wouldn't have wanted exploration to stop- regardless of how their own efforts ended.
Jason
Sorry, I don't agree. That is the same as saying that we should have scrapped the space program when 3 astronauts were burned alive on the launchpad.
Congrats Andrew, I am looking forward to your map. Am I ever going back there? Probably not. There's plenty of other passages that I want to see, but to know that a few will get to go there and be a little safer doing it due to Andrew's map, is exciting.
Keep it up guys, keep exploring. It's the true spirit of caving.
PS: Let me know when you find that old pirate ship like in the movie Goonies
Stay safe all.
Mike Edmonston
NAUI Technical Instructor
Oxycheq Experimental Dive Team Test Pilot
US NAVY Submariner TM2/ss 1988 - 1996
Currently US ARMY Military Police NTM-A TSS-COSTALL Spin Boldak Afghanistan 2010 - ??
Instructor Trainer and NATO Advisor to Afghan National Police Force and Afghan Border Patrol
Its exceedingly difficult to do any type of geological research without maps. One of the biggest hurdles in karst research is trying to figure out who has maps of what caves and whether or not they're going to give them to people to use for research. One of the benefits of centralizing data/publicizing data is that it makes it available to larger groups of people (including researchers) and prevents data from being lost when the original surveyor dies or their house burns down.
I've personally witnessed several prominent cave divers who claim to support research and conservation tell legitimate researchers to pack sand when they were asked for a map of what they were surveying. These researchers didn't even cave dive! I've also had this problem with several very political state cave surveys.... On the other hand - I have had a lot of very generous cave divers that have bent over backwards to help me with my research.
My personal opinion about cave secrecy is that it actually hurts conservation efforts - who would want to save polar bears if biologists spent every day trying to purge the internet of any mention of them in an effort to prevent the one odd hunter from going out and shooting one. No development company wants to build over a known cave passage. However, once companies have already invested a lot of money in a development, purchased a property and then find out from cavers in the final planning stages that there is cave under their property - engineering solutions become more economical.
Damage done to caves by cave divers is really just cosmetic (Don't get the idea that I'm excusing it). We as cave divers are the only people that are really going to be affected by it. Now pollution, major conduit collapses or groundwater mining are all things that are not cosmetic and constitute a real threat to underwater caves. These are all things that can prevented if cave conservation was a bit more broad minded and pro-active.
Jason Gulley
You are right there Andrew. It IS a long way back there and that crack is just scary. I think that regardless of anything, that location in itself being 4K+ feet in there in low and silty layout is not going to attract many divers to just 'have a look'. You are more of a man than I am, it scared me away.
Meng Tze
-Homo Bonae Voluntatis
Gary, I'm seriously not trying to blow my own horn here. I just know most people don't like going through the schlepp. And I think they love to hear about what's back there.
It's just that this is a self-limiting club.
And I'm hardly the only one back there. Marius Frei and James Toland have laid almost all of the awesome line back there - I laid a paltry 200 feet. THEY deserve far more kudos for exploration back there than I do. They're (sepecially James) just quieter about it. I'm an anomaly in believing that talking about it brings the sport forward, not back. And probably an anomaly in WANTING others to go back there and lay new line.
If anyone else is a) laying new line back there, b) willing to take measurements, and c) willing to share those measurements, please let me know and I'll add your data to the map with full acknowledgement. But I'm unwilling ot make this a one way street, i.e. I give you data and you give me nothing back.
I'd love to collect that data for inclusion in the NACD article. Although James has expressed interest in putting something into NSS CDS so he may do a continuation article presenting further mapping data there.
Last edited by aainslie; 09-25-2008 at 04:02 PM.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
Geez, nothing I hate more than the "good old boys" mentality. " The caves need to be protected from those who don't know where they are." "Posting about new exploration is going to ruin things." "I had some great dives at some beautiful caves, but I'm not going to say where." "New divers will ruin and damage the cave."
Then tell me....who really cares? It's like saying "I went to this amazing restaurant and had the best meal in my life, but I can't tell you where it is or how to get there, cuz if more people go they will ruin it for me."
I've got some big news. Cave diving is becoming more and more popular. People are going to dive the caves whether other people want to hide them or not. The "old guard" is just that, old. Sure there have been some great explorers who have advanced cave diving by leaps and bounds, but the bottom line is this; there are more and more new, young divers who are doing the same thing. This whole secret society mentality is old and boring.
As was mentioned before, the "damage" to the caves than any divers do is pretty much cosmetic and temporary. Caves are not immutable. No matter what, every single cave in the world is changing and will continue to change long after anyone here is alive. Even if no other diver was ever to enter a cave, they would keep on changing. Even the worst human impact from a diver in a cave is not permanent. At some point in the future time will wash it away, change the passage, open a new one, etc. Maybe not in our lifetime, or even in our children's or grandchildren's, but it will be changed. I don't condone running a scooter into a beautiful feature, a clay bank, etc. I don't condone writing one's name in the clay. On the other hand, the argument that more people in a passage ruins that passage is just plain elitist. More people in a passage may change that passage, and yes, some my even damage it, but that just changes the passage, it doesn't ruin it. A cave is a thing of beauty no matter how it changes over time. Being part of nature, the caves are gonna change. Being part of nature, people are going to interact with the caves and bring about some change. Life is all about change, embrace it!!
Andrew, I applaud your efforts. I can honestly say that I don't think I'll ever be at a point where I can successfully and safely perform the dives you have. I am thankful that you are willing to share your exploration with those of us who aren't part of the "secret society" so that we can marvel at what else is there and we can dream.
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