Some questions on the basics

[inkdiver]

Let me preface this by stating that I am a fairly new, well very new, cave diver. I received my Intro training from Rick Murcar the first weekend of April, and have only logged 23 Intro dives in the past month. I try to learn more and more by watching other cave divers, talking with them, and asking questions. All of the cave divers that I've met and talked with have been great. This past weekend at Ginnie, there were a few things that happened that seemed to be a bit out of the ordinary from what I've been trained and common sense, that I thought I'd share them. Maybe I'm just too new, and maybe these are lessons for us all.

Over the weekend, at least 3 different times, I saw used condom caths sitting in the showers. I used handy plastic bags or paper to throw them away. Granted, the drunks at Ginnie do their fair share of messing up the bathrooms, but do we, as a community need to contribute?

As we were coming out of the cave on one dive, two divers on scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 jump turing corkscrews on the scooters. A few seconds later, the viz dropped dramatically, and it was pretty clear that at least one of the scooters had gotten into the clay in that area. Another team we know was ahead of us and noticed the viz drop as the scooters went by. We noticed lots of gouges in the Mud Flats on other dives. Aren't we supposed to stay out of the clay and the mud?

On one dive, we were coming out of the Ear while another team was entering. The team was just hanging on and there was really nowhere to go. It was clear that they saw us, as their light was right in my eyes. So we had to pull back into the Ear and and wait for them to enter before we could exit. Is there any rule of thumb that exiting teams should wait for entering teams in the Ear due to the flow. Again, I'm still learning and althouh I was taught to always yield to exiting teams, I don't know if there is some overriding factor that is an exception to that like high flow.

Again, as I said, I'm new to this and don't want to complain. These are just some obesrvations and questions for a new guy. As noted previously, I've met lots of great people in the cave community who have been really helpful and supportive!!

Don

[Moonfuzzy]

As we were coming out of the cave on one dive, two divers on scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 jump turning corkscrews on the scooters. A few seconds later, the viz dropped dramatically, and it was pretty clear that at least one of the scooters had gotten into the clay in that area. Another team we know was ahead of us and noticed the viz drop as the scooters went by. We noticed lots of gouges in the Mud Flats on other dives. Aren't we supposed to stay out of the clay and the mud?

Absolutely! There has been an accumulation of marks and damage over the years that I have been diving these areas (a coincidence, not a result of my technique ; ) When I see people bring it up the answer is normally something like 'you can't do any better so I have some sort of right to do it this way'. We all need to bring it up when we see this happening - the old 'what happens in the cave stays in the cave' is not doing the caves any good.

On one dive, we were coming out of the Ear while another team was entering. The team was just hanging on and there was really nowhere to go. It was clear that they saw us, as their light was right in my eyes. So we had to pull back into the Ear and and wait for them to enter before we could exit. Is there any rule of thumb that exiting teams should wait for entering teams in the Ear due to the flow. Again, I'm still learning and althouh I was taught to always yield to exiting teams, I don't know if there is some overriding factor that is an exception to that like high flow.

Exiting teams have the right of way - they should have gotten out of your way. Maybe they thought there was plenty of room, but since you are new you didn't feel that way... that is one of the only excuses I can think of for them.

[rlc5925]

I would take no exception to your observations and would add it's the exception not the norm as far as behavior goes. Welcome

[LiteHedded]

the scooter guys were comical
one guy does a barrel roll coming out of the hill 400 jump and exits upside down.
another 50 feet down the tunnel the vis mysteriously drops to about 20'

[Me]

Next time you see something like that, see if their name is painted on tanks or scooter. I know of several seasoned cave divers that would love to have a quiet little chat with such folks.

As to the caths....Come on guys, I manage to throw my used Depends in the can, can't you follow suit?

[ARY]

...We all need to bring it up when we see this happening - the old 'what happens in the cave stays in the cave' is not doing the caves any good....

While i totally agree that clumziness, lack of control and eventually damage to the cave should be condemned i think that facts of damage should "stay in a cave" and not on a public forum. For cyberdivers from authorities internet talks is the primary source of information on a subject. They will judge based on your crying and eventually we will loose our privileges of access or they will limit our range in caves. Not to mention we may never see new dive sites open to "recreational diver". I know that every instructor teaches that we must care about the natural look of the cave. We talk about it on parking lotsand in agency printed publications. Isn't it enough?

I think however that ethics issues mentioned deserve more space for discussion here. The right of way is not only an ethics subject but the safety as well and it comes from assumption that exiting team might be low on gas, trying to maintain decompression stops, or may be compromised otherwise. Violating this is showing no respect to a fellow caver but also may be indirect compromise of somebody's safety which may be interpreted as a crime. Occasionally i've experienced non ethical behavior too: i was crashed into mud by cave instructor who thought he has more rights than me to be there, i was buzzed by scooters in Gallery, my reels were moved, etc. Ethics is also part of the cave training and if some people forget ethics i say: i'll let myself forget it for a moment too and kick his ass as a reminder of ethics. Well if he turns to be a smaller guy than me of course...

To the thread starter: BTW many people prefer exit via Eye as it is easier to do stops and it is less desireable for teams to entry. So it kinda regulates traffic itself. But of course there are people who like it the opposite and for good reasons

[inkdiver]

To the thread starter: BTW many people prefer exit via Eye as it is easier to do stops and it is less desireable for teams to entry. So it kinda regulates traffic itself. But of course there are people who like it the opposite and for good reasons

Thanks, ARY for the sugestion. We did both on different dives. As we are fairly new, we are trying to build up our experience in each. I do agree that stops are much easier coming out of the Eye.

Thanks!

Don

[LiteHedded]

If you are intro why are you doing a jump onto Hill 400?

i didn't.
just swimming past it

[inkdiver]

If you are intro why are you doing a jump onto Hill 400?

We weren't. The scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 Jump onto the mainline, which is where we were.

[Daedalus]

We weren't. The scooters came flying out of the Hill 400 Jump onto the mainline, which is where we were.

Sorry, I misread it.