Challenge

[bullfrog]

Entering a cave You come around a corner and you see a diver exiting. He gives you the out of air sign. After you give him your long hose, what next? How does your plan change if you are diving as a pair, or a threesome, or a quad. What questions do you ask him? How do you proceed after that. The point being maybe you can save more than one life, if you have a plan. Hit me with your best shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sludge]

If someone gives you a legitimate OOA signal, all bets are off. You exit with the diver, all the way to the surface. It doesn't matter what you paid for the fill, or how close it is to 3:30 (sorry, Janet), or how much burn time you have left on your light. Or anything. An OOA signal is the most important thing to happen to you that day, or that week.

Go to the surface with him, and when all is well, re-plan the dive and make it if you can.

[timle]

I think the point is you see a single diver. Assuming you are also not solo, do you attempt to find out if there is possible someone else to rescue? Given that there is another diver, what do you do?

Solo diver = no choice - exit with diver

Team of two = very hard choice - leave a diver solo to search for a diver? If OOA diver writes on wetnotes "another diver right behind me". Maybe leave one diver for a small amount of time. Try to catch OOA and donor after a short search.

Team of three = still not great choice - leave one diver with the ooa diver to send two diver to search? Again need info from OOA diver.

Team of four = ah here we go - two exit with ooa, two search to thirds.

[skip]

A lone OOA diver from the blue? Once air share was ok'd and all calm, I'd whip out a slate and ask about buddies. Was he alone? Did buddies exit already or left somewhere? A minute or two to ask about the OOA diver's buddies, might mean the rest of your team should go on a search for other potential divers in trouble.

Of course getting the OOA diver to the surface is a priority, but a minute assessing the situation can't do any harm.

-skip

[Moonfuzzy]

I figure if he had buddies that already exited I would have seen them on the surface before entering the cave. Most likely they would have been making a ruckus because they were missing one from their team.

So, either he is solo or there is another buddy in the system.

How freaked out or calm the person is would determine if my buddy and I split up to check for others. (personal safety issue here I think ; )

If the diver doen't have to do deco etc. we could get info pretty quickly about who else is in the cave and where they went. If not then wet notes once they get calmed down seems like the only choice.

My buddy and I are pretty much always rigged for solo diving. If we are together one of us would probably check for other buddies while the other escorts the OOA diver to the surface... keep an eye on them for DCS or injuries - they may have been holding their breath etc.

[Gary]

I'd be most concerned about the lives currently at hand. I wouldn't want to leave a buddy alone with an OOA diver - or alone to go looking for another. The idea of two divers on one set of functional gear is an obvious no no. The diver involved might be paniced or breathing far more then anyone would expect. I wouldn't want to see one buddy go off alone with someone in that situation.

Get the first guy out and learn from him what happened and where and then go looking.

With a team of 4 you could have 2 divers take one out and 2 others go searching but depending on the system, how far in, etc it might be better to talk to the rescued guy and find out where to look.

Having a lot of stage bottles and how far into the cave could make a difference. Sometimes when I am alone I will check on other divrs on my way out. Quite often I have 4 bottles on me each with enough gas in them to get out of the cave on. In that case we're not really talking about 2 divers on one set of functional gear but rather 2 or 3 divers on 3 or 4 sets of functional gear. That might mean everyone gets out and still have a spare on hand to deal with emergencies.

Handing off a stage bottle to an OOA diver would be my prefered method of handling the situation. I think then geting the divers on hand out alive should be the priority over looking for any more. Not leaving the divers with no backup to get out of the cave alone to go searching for another.

[skip]

I'd be most concerned about the lives currently at hand. I wouldn't want to leave a buddy alone with an OOA diver - or alone to go looking for another. The idea of two divers on one set of functional gear is an obvious no no. The diver involved might be paniced or breathing far more then anyone would expect. I wouldn't want to see one buddy go off alone with someone in that situation.

Get the first guy out and learn from him what happened and where and then go looking.

With a team of 4 you could have 2 divers take one out and 2 others go searching but depending on the system, how far in, etc it might be better to talk to the rescued guy and find out where to look.

Having a lot of stage bottles and how far into the cave could make a difference. Sometimes when I am alone I will check on other divrs on my way out. Quite often I have 4 bottles on me each with enough gas in them to get out of the cave on. In that case we're not really talking about 2 divers on one set of functional gear but rather 2 or 3 divers on 3 or 4 sets of functional gear. That might mean everyone gets out and still have a spare on hand to deal with emergencies.

Handing off a stage bottle to an OOA diver would be my prefered method of handling the situation. I think then geting the divers on hand out alive should be the priority over looking for any more. Not leaving the divers with no backup to get out of the cave alone to go searching for another.

I don't agree on two points.

1. "The idea of two divers on one set of functional gear is an obvious no no. The diver involved might be paniced or breathing far more then anyone would expect. I wouldn't want to see one buddy go off alone with someone in that situation."

This is exactly what is taught and practiced in two-person teams. We are trained to "go off alone with someone in that situation." So, I don't see that as a problem. Whether your buddy is comfortable going solo to search for trouble, well, that's his/her decision. If not, and you are, then you could switch roles.

2. "Handing off a stage bottle to an OOA diver would be my prefered method of handling the situation."

I would really have to be confident that an OOA diver with a possilbe missing buddy or two could handle a stage. We are trained in a two-person team exiting on one diver's gas. You do what you are trained to do at the intro/full cave level (lowest common denominator), unless the OOA diver provides evidence otherwise.

Two friendly amendents?

-skip

[Dan Thoms]

bring him to the surface-

2man team- both of you go the surface with the ooa
3man team- same as above
where the diver if he had a buddy actually lost contact- and sucked all of his/her air out while looking for them. Would have marked the line with his/her cookie.For a refrence point-

Where the your team,. would have a point of search for his buddy.

Till either the ooa- calmed down enough probably at the surface to explain what happend. It depends greatly on the ooa diver and their response to scribbling on a slate if the diver was capable of doing so in the water.

My exp with 4 divers at the surface plans are made- that if something happend to one then the other would go with them and the other two would remain in the water.
where 4divers are actually two teams instead of one.

Personaly this is based on speculation, its primarly based on the ooa- its up to them to get the message to you as diver/team entering the water.

my opion- what would/did you do bullfrog?

[Gary]

This is exactly what is taught and practiced in two-person teams. We are trained to "go off alone with someone in that situation." So, I don't see that as a problem.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because you are correct, but here's my thinking:

This guy could be anyone. He may not even be cave trained but the one thing I know about him so far is he has managed to run OOA and loose his buddy (if he ever had one).

I'd say get him out and find out what you're looking for before spliting from your buddy on a wild goose chase and leaving them alone with a very questionable diver. His buddy may be dead or have exited the cave already or this guy could pull any number of stupid diver tricks on the way out.

Also a explaination of where to look and what you're looking for could be more useful then searching around the cave guessing.


On the other hand maybe we do know this guy and/or have a good idea of what we are looking for. Maybe we're far in the cave but have multiple reserves and plenty of air to help more then one diver out - where looking for a lost diver now could be the only chance to get rescue to this part of the cave in reasonable time.


But in general "one in the hand is worth two in the bush". I don't want to go looking for a posiable lost diver #2 only to exit later past my dead buddy and dead diver #1. A trio has a much better chance at getting out with an equipment failure from one - which is the least we are dealing with here. I'd advise at least staying with your buddy until you are sure that the guy and your buddy are exiting smoothly and without any surprises.

Worst case though is you actually go searching alone and find a paniced diver OOA and lost. Now you are alone, at your max penetration/minimum reserves and you have a hoover sucking down air at 5 times any reasonable rate. There is no way you have enough air to get him and yourself out alive. If you had a buddy with you it might take all you both have to get out with this guy but you sent your buddy off in a similar situation with OOA diver #1.

[night reach]

Save the one you- or your team- can. Division of resources diminishes their overall effectiveness. In a two-diver team, both divers should get the one known to be alive out alive. Squandering resources on an unknown isn't sound practice, or so I think- chasing after "maybes" in such a situation risks making a possible tragedy into a certain one.

Three divers in- that's a tougher call. Maybe two take the ooa diver out and one stays put to wait? I'm not sure. It's probably best for all three to bail with the rescuee.

Four is a no brainer- two go out with the rescuee, and two search. I'd advise the searchers to go with the rule of sixths, though.

Wendy