More Cave Damage at Ginnie's Devil's System

[cavediver27]

These guys are good, but you guys are funnier! Video says it all. /K

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

Now that was funny! And to think our cave systems are filled with that stuff!!!

[MengTze]

Now that was funny! And to think our cave systems are filled with that stuff!!!

you have no idea how apt and ironic this video in this forum is...............all the hippies jumping on the bandwagon to belong, to sign up...........I remember a thread not too long ago about some carvings and a reward being signed up all over the place.....

[Gene Powell]

I think the agencies need to re-evaluate the way we teach pull & glide. Yes we all have to use it occasionally, but there is a difference between using it out of necessity and using it to conserve energy. I saw a video on the deco stop where a diver was doing the sweet surprise/ Mainland circuit at Devils Eye. The guy actually mentioned that there were hand holds for pulling and gliding. FYI; There are not, Nor have there ever been, hand holds for pulling and gliding in this tunnel. This is an advanced dive, and if you can't do it without P&G, then your probably not ready for it. The thing that bothered me was that people were telling him how good his technique was. I'm sure he is probably a great guy, and a good diver. He just didn't know any better. Instructors need to stress that it is a technique of last resort. Maybe we could discuss it at the agency workshops. I know we all impact the caves in some way when we dive, but I personally feel that one of the best yardsticks for measuring a divers skill level is how much They impact the cave. I'm not nearly as impressed by how far or how deep someone goes as much as I am by how they do it. What gets me is it seems to be the macho guys that get the most defensive about it. Think about the name. "Pull & glide". The fact is, if you can glide after you pull, you probably didn't really need to pull. It is just a matter of convenience. It was one thing when there were just a few cave divers. With the crowds we have now, it's just too much. End of rant. Flame on!

[Line Squirrel]

I think the agencies need to re-evaluate the way we teach pull & glide. Yes we all have to use it occasionally, but there is a difference between using it out of necessity and using it to conserve energy. Instructors need to stress that it is a technique of last resort. Maybe we could discuss it at the agency workshops. I know we all impact the caves in some way when we dive, but I personally feel that one of the best yardsticks for measuring a divers skill level is how much They impact the cave. I'm not nearly as impressed by how far or how deep someone goes as much as I am by how they do it. What gets me is it seems to be the macho guys that get the most defensive about it. Think about the name. "Pull & glide". The fact is, if you can glide after you pull, you probably didn't really need to pull. It is just a matter of convenience. It was one thing when there were just a few cave divers. With the crowds we have now, it's just too much. End of rant. Flame on!

Gene - Good first post. I have been trying to figure out a way to say what you just said. I couldn't agree with you more.

I've told this very short story before, I'll do it again.

I was standing on the stairs at P1 when a team surfaced. After some chit-chat back and forth within the group, one said... "I'm not coming back here, there's no place to pull & glide"

P&G in Peacock!?!...give me a break. Anybody that feels they need to P&G in Peacock needs to reevaluate their skill set, even the Peanut tunnel. A skilled diver should be able make it through the Peanut Tunnel with very little contact. A highly skilled diver can make it through there with no contact.

That said, given a choice between the two, I would rather a diver "gently" P&G in the Peanut Tunnel than beat the crap out of the ceiling with their doubles.

Note: I never claimed to be either skilled or highly skilled

We have a good amount of newly certified divers that don't know what real flow is. Wait untill LR starts blowing again

[Gene Powell]

Thanks Mike. Yeah, I consider myself a very average diver, but even I can make it through the peanut tunnel without pulling, or scraping the ceiling. Of course it helps being in sidemount. I do agree with your statement and realize that a lot of training goes on in that tunnel. Beginners have an excuse(as long as they don't try to push it).I think I met you a while back at lafayette blue when you worked there. I was camping with my family, and we talked a little bit about diving. Take care.


"Knowledge speaks, Wisdom listens"

[skip]

I have always enjoyed pull and glide just for the pleasure of it. There is something about getting a good solid grip, giving a heave-ho, and taking off like a rocket! then again with the other hand, and you are as close to scootering as you can get without a scooter. I would actually go looking for those flat no-silt rock bottoms just so I could pull and glide. it's a rush! sure, sometimes I'd slip and pull a knob of rock loose, but it seemed like such a small thing. The only time I recall having to pull and glide was in Little River, and then it was pull and pull, no glide to it.

Telford was pull and glide heaven. I would zoom through there (back where it's rock, not so much silt).

After my training I really didn't see anything wrong with pull and glide for the fun of it; I was taught to use the flat of my hands, not grab with fingers, in order to not damage the cave, but I would still reach out instinctively and grab from time to time and then say "Oh, damn" to myself when a knob of rock would break off.

These forum posts have really begun to make me ashamed of my past behavior and reluctant to admit that I've done my share of damage. I've made promises to contribute $$ to education signs, if NSS/CDS or NACD cares to set up the account and do the work of creating and posting them (guilt money).

-skip

[aainslie]

I'm sort of sick of hearing about that freaking video but I have to agree with you... so even as one of the perpetrators of the heinous crime of making a video (albeit as filmer, not editor or placer of titles like "pull and glide here" - or even worse, advertising someone's cave map - or worser still - showing film of those places - or worserer stil... OK, I've run out but I wanted to say worserer...)

... What was I saying? Oh that's right, I agree, pull-and-glide = grab-and-drag = bad.

Now the serious part. Any way we could convince ALL the agencies to teach "pull and glide" as a BAD thing only to be done a) when all else fails, and b) accompanied by a strong sense of remorse/guilt?

[LCF]

These last few posts have been very interesting reading for me. I came to Florida for the first time in December, having done my cavern and Intro classes in Mexico (where there is, of course, little or no flow, and nobody would ever even DREAM of pulling on ANYTHING). My first cave dives in Florida were done in the Devil's system, and although I loved being in the caves, I didn't enjoy the dives very much, because I felt so desperately guilty about the amount of cave contact I was forced to use (and this was despite diving with experienced people familiar with the cave, and trying very hard to follow all their advice). In fact, I felt so bad that I've arranged to work with an instructor on our next trip, because I just felt there HAD to be a way to do better than I did.

Say whatever you will about GUE and DIR divers, that's where I got the guilt complex from

[Gene Powell]

Andrew, I'm sorry I used the video as an example. I truly didn't mean to point fingers, or blame anyone. We all share the blame. I certainly have no right to talk down to anyone about this. I am also afraid that if we get too extreme in our positions about the whole contact with cave thing, we will alienate the only people that can Break this habit. Cave divers. What I hope can happen is that this intelligent, resourceful group can come together, brainstorm, and find a way to solve a problem that not only is diminishing the natural beauty and health of the very caves we are so passionate about, but to do so before the State does it for us. I should also say that cave divers as a group, are the absolute best at protecting the resource we enjoy, and are an asset to the state park system. We just need to look ahead and make adjustments as we grow.
Take care, Gene Powell

" If your not a part of the solution, then your a part of the problem"

[wingman]

I think this is fairly recent or at least the first time I've taken note of it. The black shell rock covering the floor from about 1900-2100' has been torn up off the floor exposing clay and the clay now marked with fin and drag marks. Looks like swimmers have attempted to pull and glide thru this area for a couple hundred feet with heavy damage.

Hey Gary...actually sitting at devils at the moment...went by this area yesterday and today looking for the damage. I must say i do see some areas where the rock is broken and some brown clay exposed for about 10 feet or so...spent some time scootering back and forth in the area of the sweet surprise jump and the entire area where that black bubbly rock is. While there is damage here and there it did not look recent or significantly different from what i was familiar with. Bill