DIC Investigation

[Line Squirrel]

Thanks Ken, I am sure you mean well. I would like to suggest that any further accusations or ID's that people want to do be sent in a PM to you.

I agree - if you have a name, PM it to whoever...do not put it on a public forum.

Someones name gets wrongly associated with this mess, by no fault of his/hers it will follow them around the cave diving world for a very long time.

Therefore, I deleted the three earlier posts.

[fpsndiver]

Dear admins,

I am new to this forum, and this is my first post. I am pleased that you removed the libelous accusations that previously appeared on this thread.

So from my dive buddy J. Crowder, and I......thank you very much.

For future references...... our instructor..Rich Courtney was very firm about cave conservation. I agree whole heartedly with those teachings, as does Crowder. We don't leave any trash in caves, we don't deface caves, as we want others to enjoy the environment in the same condition which it has been in for millions of years.

I think this investigation is a good thing, and I hope you all catch the culprits responsible for the graffitti. However, naming suspects on a public forum is libelous. I think you need to respect innocent parties, and keep your suspects to yourselves in PMs and emails.

On another note....since I have read these threads here and on TDS, I also have seen the pictures of said damage in Cow on TDS. There is a handprint there next to the graffitti. In the clay, it is highly likely that identifiable prints from palms/fingers are present in the impressions. Anyone thought about casting them for preservation and potential identification? I have experience in the field.....so just a thought there. You have good physical evidence that you are neglecting. At minimum, you have the exact impression of the hand size of your suspect.

[Cave Ranger]

Dear admins,

I am new to this forum, and this is my first post. I am pleased that you removed the libelous accusations that previously appeared on this thread.

So from my dive buddy J. Crowder, and I......thank you very much.

For future references...... our instructor..Rich Courtney was very firm about cave conservation. I agree whole heartedly with those teachings, as does Crowder. We don't leave any trash in caves, we don't deface caves, as we want others to enjoy the environment in the same condition which it has been in for millions of years.

I think this investigation is a good thing, and I hope you all catch the culprits responsible for the graffitti. However, naming suspects on a public forum is libelous. I think you need to respect innocent parties, and keep your suspects to yourselves in PMs and emails.

On another note....since I have read these threads here and on TDS, I also have seen the pictures of said damage in Cow on TDS. There is a handprint there next to the graffitti. In the clay, it is highly likely that identifiable prints from palms/fingers are present in the impressions. Anyone thought about casting them for preservation and potential identification? I have experience in the field.....so just a thought there. You have good physical evidence that you are neglecting. At minimum, you have the exact impression of the hand size of your suspect.

I just realized that one of my wry comments refering to the aledged "slanderous" comments have been removed. I also realize that sarcasm doesn't translate well in script without the proper tongue in cheek emotocon. None the less....My apologies to all offended parties.

[Walter Pickel]

My most sincere apologies for my post and the remarks it seems to have generated. It was not to be malicious or to defame. It was simply made to spurn more interest into this most pressing of issues. I am glad it has lead to more people being concerned. Again, my apologies. It was not meant to be accusatory, simply information.

[fpsndiver]

I am totally fine with the investigation, and I hope you all can nail the perps...but when my buddy's name is listed as a perp...and mine too, especially when we are so new to all of this cave diving, its a little disconcerting. I'd never even been to this forum until I heard about the post. So, the cool thing about all this is I have found this forum. I have found a lot of valuable information and posts here already. That was the bonus of the thread "controversy". No worries mate, and happy diving!

[skip]

Recent research is pretty clear on psychological profiling. It does not work. The FBI profilers, over a course of 20 years got it wrong in over 90% of the cases that were eventually solved. A review of the cases shows that relying on profilers and thus limiting searches to those "types" cost more man hours in solving the case than those cases in which profilers were not involved, or different ones came up with totally different profiles. The message being that profiling is a parlor game, not science, not valid, and creates useless and costly narrowing of perception.

There's a nice summary article on this in The New Yorker, Nov. 12, 2007, page 36-45.

-skip

[skip]

I am with Ken, we should find these guys, and prosecute them!

yea! that $50.00 misdeamenor fine and that $150.00 court cost will sure teach them a lesson! and if they're out of state or out of country....well, just knowing that they can't return without getting arrested is enough, right? No, wait, let's form a committee and send a posse to wherever "they" live and prosecute them ourselves. Yea!

jeeeesh, for all the so-called creative minds in the cave-diving community, this whole thread is more fiction and more absurd blowing up of the community chest than the captain narco series....

the guy (or guys) are college students, or recently out of college, are from the south eastern states, maybe even florida, maybe or maybe not cave certified (many non-cert divers go where the certified seem to think only "trained" divers would or could go - erroneously), they are relatively new to cave diving (and moving too fast in their excitement for it), they drink beer, and have paid little attention to the "florida cave diving community." They do not have girlfriends, or maybe one of them sort of does. They are intelligent, but not overly gifted, and have a passion for scuba diving (mostly in salt water). They may or may not know what is going on in the forums (probably not), and if they do know they are enjoying the show they've created - more so than doing the deeds, which they perceived as no more than school-boy graffiti on the side of a building in the alley. They think we are all stupid for making such a big deal out of nothing, but probably won't return to cave country anytime soon (just in case). They are basically good kids, just playing around with no intention of doing anything wrong. Their parents were divorced and they grew up primarily with a single mom, but a dad that gave too little time and too much money. Above average affluence in the household, Christian, but little church experience when they got older. Some small trouble with the law, nothing really bad, and no lasting record of it. They probably smoke pot, tried the other recreational drugs, and they most likely are sharing an apartment or house (rental). They drive a big truck or SUV with dive flag stickers and a front bumper plate. Dive-Rite gear too, fairly new (did not buy used gear or rent).

oh, and they like those role-playing games (Like the old dungeons and dragons, or that card game - magic?).

-skip

[ARY]

This is just my input and I would in no way attempt this myself without the support and blessing of the local cave diving community. That being said......Let the brainstorming begin!!!

Maybe somebody can take good resolution closeup pics of each damage and post so we all can look at it and think of ways to fix it. Then maybe one of numerous cave diving certification agencies will use its chance to show that they care and come up with a project coordination to remove writings, and i'm sure there will be plenty of volunteers to help. My personal guess about person who did it is this: it is out of FL state diver(s) (most probably foreigner), male, probably visiting caves during DEMA. Chances are that he will never return to FL again. Lets just remove the carving otherwise it will be a trigger for other idiots to write their worthless life signatures.

[Walter Pickel]

yea! that $50.00 misdeamenor fine and that $150.00 court cost will sure teach them a lesson!

810.13 Cave vandalism and related offenses

(2) VANDALISM.--It is unlawful for any person, without the prior written permission of the owner, to:
(a) Break, break off, crack, carve upon, write upon, burn, mark upon, remove, or in any manner destroy, disturb, deface, mar, or harm the surfaces of any cave or any natural material which may be found therein, whether attached or broken, including speleothems, speleogens, or sedimentary deposits. This paragraph does not prohibit minimal disturbance or removal for scientific inquiry.
...
(6) PENALTIES.--Any person who violates subsection (2), subsection (3), subsection (4), or subsection (5) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

775.083 Fines
...
$1,000, when the conviction is of a misdemeanor of the first degree.

Maybe it is different in Tennessee Skip but those are the laws and fines for Florida. Good try though.

[Mike Edmonston]

yea! that $50.00 misdeamenor fine and that $150.00 court cost will sure teach them a lesson! and if they're out of state or out of country....well, just knowing that they can't return without getting arrested is enough, right? No, wait, let's form a committee and send a posse to wherever "they" live and prosecute them ourselves. Yea!

jeeeesh, for all the so-called creative minds in the cave-diving community, this whole thread is more fiction and more absurd blowing up of the community chest than the captain narco series....

the guy (or guys) are college students, or recently out of college, are from the south eastern states, maybe even florida, maybe or maybe not cave certified (many non-cert divers go where the certified seem to think only "trained" divers would or could go - erroneously), they are relatively new to cave diving (and moving too fast in their excitement for it), they drink beer, and have paid little attention to the "florida cave diving community." They do not have girlfriends, or maybe one of them sort of does. They are intelligent, but not overly gifted, and have a passion for scuba diving (mostly in salt water). They may or may not know what is going on in the forums (probably not), and if they do know they are enjoying the show they've created - more so than doing the deeds, which they perceived as no more than school-boy graffiti on the side of a building in the alley. They think we are all stupid for making such a big deal out of nothing, but probably won't return to cave country anytime soon (just in case). They are basically good kids, just playing around with no intention of doing anything wrong. Their parents were divorced and they grew up primarily with a single mom, but a dad that gave too little time and too much money. Above average affluence in the household, Christian, but little church experience when they got older. Some small trouble with the law, nothing really bad, and no lasting record of it. They probably smoke pot, tried the other recreational drugs, and they most likely are sharing an apartment or house (rental). They drive a big truck or SUV with dive flag stickers and a front bumper plate. Dive-Rite gear too, fairly new (did not buy used gear or rent).

oh, and they like those role-playing games (Like the old dungeons and dragons, or that card game - magic?).

-skip

Wow Skip,

Could you please attach a .JPG of their fingerprints too? That would make it much easier to track them.

Seriously, I pretty much agree with your evaluation. Just kids on a diving weekend, just got certified to Cavern or Intro, and leaving their mark. They may or may not be back.

We should just concentrate on "fixing" the damage as best we could.