Turner-Wakulla Traverse

[FW]

Tomorrow is the big day, GOOD LUCK guys, and be safe!

[Mike Edmonston]

Then work with the not-for-profit groups already working on the issues, like the NACD, and NSS-CDS. Join the Wakulla CSO, but don't raise any flags that you may not be able to take down later.

What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

I have no problem with caves owned by the CDS or other private entities, but a public park should be open to the public.

They state should have no problem conducting research and allowing other divers to enjoy the cave.

It seems to me that the WKPP uses this permit and research to their financial advantage in a big way.

1. you have to be GUE trained to participate $$$
2. you have to sherpa their gear as an unpaid intern $$$
3. When you get to dive, you get to bring them tanks, food etc... all for free $$$

Hell, that's a prety good gig for them. You paid them for the training, and then volunteer your time for YEARS just so that you can carry a few tanks for free??

Where do I sign up!

I am not knocking JJ or the WKPP or their accomplishments, but if you step back and look at the big picture, it's the model for a good ole boys network hiding behind a government permit to keep their exclusivity!

If they want it so bad, let them buy the land. Otherwise it needs to be open to everyone. Why is it that nobody wants to talk about this? Would the state not grant us access? why not?

[PerroneFord]

What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

The WKPP doesn't approve their own permit. The people responsible for the protection of that resource approve it. And thus far, they seem to feel they are getting good value out of the deal.

I have no problem with caves owned by the CDS or other private entities, but a public park should be open to the public.

Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing...

They state should have no problem conducting research and allowing other divers to enjoy the cave.

Then bring it up with the state. Request a hearing. Happens all the time.

It seems to me that the WKPP uses this permit and research to their financial advantage in a big way.

Really? How much money do think they are making off their volunteers?

[QUOTE=Mike Edmonston;41567]
1. you have to be GUE trained to participate $$$

Do you think that GUE or the NACD/CDS trains more cave divers per year?

2. you have to sherpa their gear as an unpaid intern $$$

No you don't. You don't have to do anything. But then, that's not exactly a team mentality.

3. When you get to dive, you get to bring them tanks, food etc... all for free $$$

That is the choice of the person participating. No one in the WKPP is forcing anyone to do anything. As you have pointed out, many people have no such desire to do these things, and don't.

Hell, that's a prety good gig for them. You paid them for the training, and then volunteer your time for YEARS just so that you can carry a few tanks for free??

And yet, people keep on signing up to do it. Amazing isn't it? Maybe some people are just happy to be a part of the effort. Maybe some are absorbing team procedures and learning things. I know that's why I went. As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

Where do I sign up!

Gue.com

I am not knocking JJ or the WKPP or their accomplishments, but if you step back and look at the big picture, it's the model for a good ole boys network hiding behind a government permit to keep their exclusivity!

The big picture? The big picture is that propogation of surface runoff is better understood by all involved parties. Tallahassee has agreed to build a new water treamtent plant in a less sensitive area because of the work done. Hyrdogeology is being rethought, at least in part, because of the work done. A potentially damaging plan to bottle water from the spring was turned down because of the information gathered. To me, that's the big picture.

Why is it that nobody wants to talk about this?

People have been talking about it for 10+ years. The question is what have people DONE about it?

Would the state not grant us access? why not?

Who, exactly, is "us" ?

[Sludge]

[contender]

That would require me taking Cave1. I may or may not do that. But I'm not sure why that really matters.

Who are you cave certified through?

Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing....

I don't think this is what Mike was talking about!

As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

How is it possible for you to go assist, watch, etc. when GUE says you have to be Cave 1 to be there?

[Mike Edmonston]

Park is open to the public. There were hundreds of people enjoying the park the last time I was there. Kids in the water, adults tanning themselves, glass bottom boats running, restaurant was full, gift shop was buzzing...

Yes the park is open, but it would be nice if the cave was open too

Then bring it up with the state. Request a hearing. Happens all the time.

Thanks, will do.

Really? How much money do think they are making off their volunteers?

The fact that they are volunteers saves them a ton of funds. Even dive operations pay their divemasters something!

Do you think that GUE or the NACD/CDS trains more cave divers per year?

That's irrelevant. AFAIK, CDS/NACD doesn't control access to a PUBLIC cave.

No you don't. You don't have to do anything. But then, that's not exactly a team mentality.

There's nothing wrong with volunteering your time. That's really good actually. But the WKPP REQUIRES you to "volunteer" before you can dive.
When it's required, it's not really being a volunteer is it?

That is the choice of the person participating. No one in the WKPP is forcing anyone to do anything.

And how many dives would they do without a volunteer support crew and tank sherpas?

And yet, people keep on signing up to do it. Amazing isn't it? Maybe some people are just happy to be a part of the effort. Maybe some are absorbing team procedures and learning things. I know that's why I went. As a new caver, it was very helpful for me to see what gear get's used and how. And how surface management went. And how support diving worked, etc. Not easy info to come by in other places.

It's actually under a false pretense. you volunteer under the assumption that you will get to dive this system. How many expeditions have you pushed? I am sure that you busted your butt for them alot. I haven't seen any special thanks to you in any literature or videos!

The big picture is that propogation of surface runoff is better understood by all involved parties. Tallahassee has agreed to build a new water treamtent plant in a less sensitive area because of the work done. Hyrdogeology is being rethought, at least in part, because of the work done. A potentially damaging plan to bottle water from the spring was turned down because of the information gathered. To me, that's the big picture.

No argument there, and again I am in NO WAY criticizing the work that JJ has done. But having volunteers that need to PAY YOU for training while shlepping tanks under the false pretense that they will be an explorer is just wrong!

People have been talking about it for 10+ years. The question is what have people DONE about it?

Very well said, I am working on doing something about it.

Who, exactly, is "us" ?

Us is ANY diver with the required skills to make a safe dive in that environment. Wouldn't you like to dive that system Ford? Hell, I would!

[PerroneFord]

Who are you cave certified through?

IANTD

How is it possible for you to go assist, watch, etc. when GUE says you have to be Cave 1 to be there?

I don't know. I just showed up, asked if I could be of assistance, and did some stuff. Seemed to work out ok. I even had fun and learned some things.

[PerroneFord]

It's actually under a false pretense. you volunteer under the assumption that you will get to dive this system. How many expeditions have you pushed? I am sure that you busted your butt for them alot. I haven't seen any special thanks to you in any literature or videos!

I think the folks carrying gear to the water and moving bottles around understand that they won't be laying new line. I didn't do it for any special thanks or recognition at all. I used to work for DEP (in legal and water) and frankly, I applaud any effort to improve water quality. Especially in my area. I spent many a day volunteering my time when I was at DEP cleaning up beaches, collecting batteries for proper disposal, etc. Makes me feel good to just do good things.

shlepping tanks under the false pretense that they will be an explorer is just wrong!

Again, you're making an assumption that the people doing the schlepping think they will be exploring. I don't think that's true at all.

Wouldn't you like to dive that system Ford? Hell, I would!

Honestly, not really. Too deep for my taste. There's so much other stuff around I couldn't dive it all in 5 lifetimes. It'll take me years to just finish Peacock and Madison.


I thank you for the conversation, but I need to bow out. I wish you all the best in supporting current efforts to open up caves to diving. If you feel the need to strike out on your own, I only ask that you please be mindful of other ongoing efforts.

Have a great weekend.

[Mike Edmonston]

I wish you all the best in supporting current efforts to open up caves to diving. If you feel the need to strike out on your own, I only ask that you please be mindful of other ongoing efforts.

Have a great weekend.

I wouldn't do it any other way. EVERYONE including the WKPP has a right to dive and enjoy it.

Safe diving bud...

[FW]

What exactly is wrong with trying to have sites open to all and not just a self proclaimed elitist group that uses a research permit to keep others out of "their treehouse?"

What do you think I had just said? Work with the not-for profit groups. The NACD, along with the NSS-CDS got Manatee, Peacock, Madison, and Lafayette Blue open to public cavediving. Starting over on your own will only take more time. Use your energy for a cause that actually stands a chance.