Things we can do to reduce damage to the caves

[fixxervi6]

I went back and re read, anyone have a link this cow video?

[aainslie]

For some reason, it's temporarily broken. It'll probably be back up again in a few days.


...Amazing how it keeps breaking at times like this...

[FW]

Oh - and Forrest, what exactly was more civil about OFG's picture than my brief use of some naughty words a few posts ago? I know I'm making an inferential jump here bus I suspect it's warranted.

Sorry it took us so long to get to the picture in question, but we have been a little busy.

I am with Mike, another outburst will get this whole thread locked. We are too busy fixing all the issues with the new board, to have to deal with childishness.

[RHolmesJr]

fixxervi6, it really looked like you were pointing at him. His video had already been mentionned in this thread (RHolmesJr post) and not in a good way. As you clarified you haven't even seen one of his video but it sure did look like you had in your original post.

Anyhow, you guys can make peace now so that Mike doesn't have to keep up to the real nature of his avatar....

I actually am quite impressed by Andrew's video at Cow. I even thought about purchasing the housing and camera system he had for sale. It was a good buy, but the money had to be used for other things. I was not knocking his skills either. I am sure it is tough to manage a video system and maintain proper silt technique, especially in Cow. I was just pointing out that sometimes everyone has encountered contact with a cave sometime in their experiences. Some of us forget ourselves. I was just trying to make a point. In no way, shape or form was I judging his skills as a diver or a videographer. I'm sure Andrew understood what I was trying to say. I hope he will continue to share future clips of his experiences with us.

[Moonfuzzy]

FACT cave diving does damage to the cave I don't care WHO YOU ARE or HOW YOU DIVE

The point of this thread is to discuss what could be done to REDUCE damage. I don't know why so many people are saying "things are fine the way they are, leave us alone and go away". If you don't have something to contribute why did you bother to post?

So many people are saying 'the only way to get rid of damage is to stop diving'. That is true. However, since most of us start having nightmares when people say such things I'd guess that none of us wants to pursue that. I think there is a LOT of room to work with between the way the caves are being treated now and a perfect ZERO damage state.

FACT some people get on these boards thump their chests ##### about damage to the cave, and they are doing quite a bit of the damage themselves.

Seems to be that most of the people that seem to be 'thumping their chests' on this thread are not the ones talking about how to help our caves. They are often being very defensive. People - this isn't a personal attack - stop being so defensive when someone suggests that maybe you don't know everything there is to know about cave diving!

Anyway - whether the people bringing up the subject are causing damage or not is not the point - the point is that they are starting a discussion on how to improve things. I can't speak for everyone but if you are referring to Gary in this comment, I'm sure he would jump at a chance to improve any part of his diving. I'm always interested in improving my skills and I don't take it as an insult when someone suggest that there may be something I could get better at.

I think it is true that some divers have much more impact on the cave than others. The question is WHY and WHAT CAN WE DO TO IMPROVE THINGS?

FACT the more people that get into this sport the more damage there will be.

Probably, but if we can teach them (somehow) to have less of an impact on the caves than we current have then the caves will be able to support more of us and look about the same.

I saw a post about a bouancy class, I'm sorry folks if you need to take a bouancy class and you are a cave diver, the instructor that issued you your card needs his instructor status pulled, thats step 1 of being a cave diver, if you don't have your bouancy nailed stay in the kiddie pool.

I totally agree with you, but the fact is that there are more and more hand prints showing up on the cave floors - since I assume these were caused by accidents (not intentional or gear failure) that means some of us, from time to time, do not have perfect buoyancy. How would having a class available for help brushing up on this skill be a bad thing? Maybe a few pointers from a pro would help the guy who has a habit of sticking his hand in the mud?

You want less damage, that means less divers, either by cranking up the requirements and making it so hard no one can pass.

There are many divers taking cave training because they want to apply it to other types of diving. Why not push to get them training in their own areas - that gives them something other than a Full Cave card? Why should a NJ wreck diver HAVE to come down to Florida to get better trained for the wrecks where he lives? Maybe he would have preferred to take a class locally that focused on wreck penetration - any opinions? If they want cave training, great... nobody is stopping that either. I guess the problem with this idea is that there isn't really an agency out there - PADI doesn't step up to the plate, and the NACD/NSS are CAVE agencies - maybe IANTD could put together a good wreck diving class?



Ok, here are some thoughts & questions on the subject:

I think most people will agree that the best way to progress in cave diving skills is to get a great mentor. Unfortunately, there are way more new divers out there than mentors... and many people who would qualify as a mentor want to do dives that are way beyond the skills of a new diver. So there is the rub. Generally people find that money is a great motivator - so way not pay these mentors to go diving and give feedback? This would be kind of like getting guided in Mexico I guess, but instead of a group of 10 it would be only one or two.

I still think that requiring people to talk to an instructor annually and get in the water is a good thing, but since everyone seems to be so against that idea how about Gary's thought that classes are offered and people can CHOOSE to take them?

I think posting a sign talking about cave preservation is a good start. We already have them for 'We don't want you to die' and 'lookie where you drinking water comes from'. I don't know if it would have an affect, maybe it would help emphasize the idea...

I like the idea of an underwater obstacle course - it sounds like fun and a good way to promote conservation - but only if it is not timed - ha ha!

It seems like some instructors are teaching skills and conservation better than others. Maybe the agencies can "spy on them" occasionally to check on how things are being taught? (send students surveys, send a friend to sit in, etc.)

Other thoughts?

[defunct]

I think it is true that some divers have much more impact on the cave than others. The question is WHY and WHAT CAN WE DO TO IMPROVE THINGS?

I and several others offered advice for Gary and/or anyone else who wants to actually do something about this issue.

Volunteer to teach a class/seminar on this very issue in/out of the water and make a difference.

Gary, nor anyone else that seems to be bitching about this matter have stepped up to the plate. When someone does, maybe some respect might be given to those bitching...

[Rich]

I and several others offered advice for Gary and/or anyone else who wants to actually do something about this issue.

Volunteer to teach a class/seminar on this very issue in/out of the water and make a difference.

Gary, nor anyone else that seems to be bitching about this matter have stepped up to the plate. When someone does, maybe some respect might be given to those bitching...

Yep, it's always nice to see such positive comments and enthusiasm from someone who joined the CDF less than three months ago.......

Safe diving,

Rich

[Gary]

Gary, nor anyone else that seems to be bitching about this matter have stepped up to the plate. When someone does, maybe some respect might be given to those bitching...

My number and E-mail have always been available on the buddy list. Before the CDF even existed I was available thru E-cavers as well. And of course you can always PM me.

I can safely say no one who has ever called me to go diving has ever been turned away (except John Robinson who I told he shouldn't be in a cave without a paid instructor to take care of him - but I had already done many dives with him before then). I enjoy diving with new people.

Kathleen and I both have to restrain ourselves a little when either of us take new people in the caves. Kathleen in particular had a dive report written up about her called "Moonfuzzy's Wild Ride" where John's comments can be summarized in one of his quotes:

Just before we descended, she said "I'd like to poke my nose into some holes on the way back, OK?" We said sure. Lambs to the slaughter.

I'm a little more cautious with new divers until I figure out what level they are diving at. Typically I do very advanced dives on my own but as my Buddy profile says:

"Call me for just about any dive but not too early in the morning. "

http://www.cavediver.net/buddies/cavers.htm#Florida

[Sludge]

Yep, it's always nice to see such positive comments and enthusiasm from someone who joined the CDF less than three months ago.......

... or added a new screen name...

[REastman]

Ok, here are some thoughts & questions on the subject:

I think most people will agree that the best way to progress in cave diving skills is to get a great mentor. Unfortunately, there are way more new divers out there than mentors... and many people who would qualify as a mentor want to do dives that are way beyond the skills of a new diver. So there is the rub. Generally people find that money is a great motivator - so way not pay these mentors to go diving and give feedback?

Offer to buy there gas...Buy them lunch...You would be amazed how many people feel that someone guiding them into a cave (even private ones) should be done totally free of charge to them, and is the guides debt to society. Edited - Not knocking anyone...but until you have been called undesirable names because you would not dive based on someone schedule I don't know...

While I see everyone's point of view, this whole thing is stupid. SLOW DOWN. The cave will be there LONG after we are dead. We have all had days where our buddy got dressed way faster than us, and rushed us into the water, and immediately our dive felt bad, etc...Eventually we learned to tell our buddy to ***** off, but this takes a while to learn. For whatever reason someone of us have had a not so perfect dive on occasion. You would think by the time we are old enough to afford cave diving as a hobby that we would capable of being honest enough with ourselves to know when we should just be turning the dive, go drink beer and eat some wings. Is it really this hard?

Added edit....Again not knocking anyone...but would it just be way simpler if we excercised our brain for ourselves a little bit and did not rely on someone constantly be a teacher for us to get better? How did we ever learn to begin with?