Things we can do to reduce damage to the caves

[Walter Pickel]

Gary,

As a member of the NACD or CDS, you would have to opportunity to ask the board members their thoughts on this. I would recommend you talk to them.

[Moonfuzzy]

You know, in re-reading this thread I was wondering why 'extra classes' would really need to be taught through an agency? Once in diving you hear about the great instructors and can seek them out. Why does such a class need to result in a c-card? It doesn't - and giving certifications would possibly cause sites to start requiring them...

If instructors made it known that they would offer custom classes to work on skills the diver wants to improve then divers may start taking them up on it... just a thought.

[defunct]

a) work on it on their own or with a buddy
b) wait until the next CDS or NACD conference and (maybe) talk about it
c) pay a guide or instructor full price and explain what you would like to work on
d) sign up for a 1 day course with 4 other people with similar interest with an instructor who teaches this and split the cost with the other students

Now, if someone's answer is (d) the only problem is that no one currently offers such a program

Why doesn't someone offer such a course?

I say you volunteer yourself (since you are the internet peek bouyancy advocate and example). I mean I am sure that many could learn so much from your obvious expertise in this area of cavediving (from your own posts).

Personally, my instructor taught us peek cave bouyancy in my cave class, maybe that is left out in the new standards?

[Mike Edmonston]

Now, if someone's answer is (d) the only problem is that no one currently offers such a program

Why doesn't someone offer such a course?

Hey gary, I TEACH THIS PROGRAM, and it's not through PADI. I am a NAUI Instructor, and you know what? You don't even get a card! Yup, you really learn to dive and control your buoyancy, and fin kicks, and I don't even give you a damn card!

I am such an #######!

Take a look at one of my classes on the link below, BTW, the rebreather divers are good friends of mine and were NOT my students during this class. They were just playing with their NOMADS. I'm in the sidemount rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDUuZMn0cMM

Enjoy

Who or what are you people peeking at?

[Gary]

Personally, my instructor taught us peek cave bouyancy in my cave class, maybe that is left out in the new standards?

Your instructor is especially amazing. I heard he taught you everything there is to know about cave diving - all in the short time the courses last.

However, most people haven't learned "everything" yet, or forgot a few things, and some are out of practice.

If someone wanted to learn or improve on something it would be much more efficient if the agencies and instructors offered a variety of courses. You might even say it is the agency's very reason to exist to improve cave safety, conservation and learning.

Instructors within their areas of specialty could schedule infrequent one or two day opportunities for cave divers to learn a variety of different subjects that interest them.

Other then your own instructor (who I understand is the absolute best at everything AND can teach years worth of everything in only a few days) most instructors have different things that they are better at teaching and different ways of teaching different things and have limitations to what they can convey in only a few days. Most people, including myself, could find a number of things worth taking the time to learn.

Once again: assuming that such a learning opportunity was made available at a reasonable frequency and price.

[Gary]

I TEACH THIS PROGRAM, I am a NAUI Instructor, and You don't even get a card!

Sounds like a great idea! (Boy I wish I had thought of that. )

No reason why other agencies couldn't do the same is there?

[sskasser]

Who or what are you people peeking at?

LOL, perhaps the peeking has peaked?

[aainslie]

I want to thank those of you who hide passages in the clear open - I think it's one of the most successful, quiet cave conservation programs going.

On my last trip, I was diving ***** (stars mine). Someone mentioned to me during a fill how unfortunate it was that they took the T's out of this cave and replaced them with jumps - perhaps he now had problems locating those jumps? Anyway, "jumps" I thought? I took a stage in and started going down every jump I could. Finally I found it - a jump that went back another 1000 feet that isn't widely publicised (although it's on at least one map that's for sale). The cave was pristine, making me realize what ALL of ***** must have looked like two decades ago. Fortunately for me it's only really sidemount accessible - although that brings me to another point - I suspect at one point ALL of ***** was only sidemount accessible, but over the years everyone has beaten it up enough that a backmount diver can now get through with ease.

So in conclusion TWO ways to reduce cave inpact:

1) Stop teaching this backmount nonsense. It's bloody awful for the cave. There's no reason not to make sidemount the norm - and this "oh my god, gas management is so unbelievably complex" is such arrant nonsense. If we believed that we wouldn't use stages. Also, it would make cave diving less appealing to the wreck diving crowd who just want a new skill - now they'd have to develop TWO new skills AND make cave diving more expensive since they'd need new gear, reducing the appeal unless they're serious about it.

2) Stop putting T's in lines, and replace them with jumps. The further back and more poorly marked the better. it helps to never replace the line so it becomes black (and therefore hard to see) and loose (end hence scary to follow). Make seeing anything other than the gold line section difficult, requiring skill, inquisitiveness and patience to find.

This stuff is easy really. Just do less marking and guiding with shiny new lines in the caves, and make cave diving harder to do, and the caves will get less traffic.

[Mike Edmonston]

I want to thank those of you who hide passages in the clear open - I think it's one of the most successful, quiet cave conservation programs going.

On my last trip, I was diving ***** (stars mine). Someone mentioned to me during a fill how unfortunate it was that they took the T's out of this cave and replaced them with jumps - perhaps he now had problems locating those jumps? Anyway, "jumps" I thought? I took a stage in and started going down every jump I could. Finally I found it - a jump that went back another 1000 feet that isn't widely publicised (although it's on at least one map that's for sale). The cave was pristine, making me realize what ALL of ***** must have looked like two decades ago. Fortunately for me it's only really sidemount accessible - although that brings me to another point - I suspect at one point ALL of ***** was only sidemount accessible, but over the years everyone has beaten it up enough that a backmount diver can now get through with ease.

So in conclusion TWO ways to reduce cave inpact:

1) Stop teaching this backmount nonsense. It's bloody awful for the cave. There's no reason not to make sidemount the norm - and this "oh my god, gas management is so unbelievably complex" is such arrant nonsense. If we believed that we wouldn't use stages. Also, it would make cave diving less appealing to the wreck diving crowd who just want a new skill - now they'd have to develop TWO new skills AND make cave diving more expensive since they'd need new gear, reducing the appeal unless they're serious about it.

2) Stop putting T's in lines, and replace them with jumps. The further back and more poorly marked the better. it helps to never replace the line so it becomes black (and therefore hard to see) and loose (end hence scary to follow). Make seeing anything other than the gold line section difficult, requiring skill, inquisitiveness and patience to find.

This stuff is easy really. Just do less marking and guiding with shiny new lines in the caves, and make cave diving harder to do, and the caves will get less traffic.

Hi Andrew,

Did you do this dive during the Rebreather workshop? I saw you coming out of the water in sidemount, 2 stages, an o2 bottle and a scooter. I was the diver on the Inspiration RB.

All I have to say is.. GET YOURSELF A HANDCART! you were beating the crap out of yourself carrying all those tanks back to the Parking lot.

But I agree, Keep the good stuff out of common knowledge, and the cave diving line squirrels won't see them. Hell, they barely see the cave as it is.

Gotta follow the line... Must follow the line... Shine light on line.... Must follow line....