Cow Damage Reward now at $1900.00

[Kelly Jessop]

When I first read about the reward, I didn't respond because I thought the same things as Andrew. Offering a reward is great and makes people feel good, but will it really do anything to help find out who did this? I didn't think so, and I still am not so sure. I think it's very possible that whoever did this was diving solo, even at Peacock. Solo diving isn't allowed at Peacock, but if someone is going to deface the cave, then why wouldn't they break other rules.

I'm still on the fence on whether to donate money for the reward. If the actions being taken do bring about an identity, what will be done? Will it be a simple slap on the wrist? Or will the name of this person be published and sent out to everyone who controls access to sites such as Peacock, Ginnie, JB, Cow, etc, and to all the air fill stations within a couple hundred miles of the caves? And will these people be diligent in checking IDs and refusing access and fills? If it's the latter, then I will gladly donate. However, if this person is still allowed access/air, then what's the point.

I know we can't control the diligence of people checking IDs, but I'd at least like to know that this person will be blacklisted in the community.

This reward program for cave vandalism isn't unique in the caving world,it has met with a lot of success in the dry caving world. I am optimistic that there is opportunity for the individual that defaced Peacock,Cow and Ginnie to be caught,plus deterence in the future. Knowledge of this program was not just passed along just in the cave diving community,but the general public and park system. So the Cow springs neighborhood is a watch community,and quite a few people from Running springs drive by there,and perhaps they saw something. Ginnie and Peacock get checked frequently due to rangers and security. So answer your question,yes I think it will help,because people seem to become more acutely aware with money involved.

[Ken Hill]

Kelly,
I just got this from a British forum and they too have become our eyes and ears. One poster on that forum took the picture of the Cow damage at painted in xxx "was here."

Publicity will be "DIC"'s undoing. If I were "DIC" and facing International disgrace I would think about turning myself in.

/K

- - - - - - - - - -

Ken just because I and others seem to be having fun with this has nothing to do with us not believing in your efforts to catch the person responsible. We have friends on here and other forums who are truly passionate about caves, I haven't experienced any sort of cave diving yet, maybe one day I will.

The reason the thread has run as it has is because we know xxx and know that he had nothing to do with it.

I sincerely hope you catch the person responsible, no diver whether cave or ocean wants to be associated with this type of action.

[RN]

So answer your question,yes I think it will help,because people seem to become more acutely aware with money involved.

What I'd really like to know, though, is what will happen once someone knows the identity of this person. Will the identity be posted? Will this person be banned from all sites and fill stations? Simply turning this person in for a misdemeanor offense isn't enough. We need to make sure this person never goes into another cave.

[Mike Edmonston]

So answer your question,yes I think it will help,because people seem to become more acutely aware with money involved.

What I'd really like to know, though, is what will happen once someone knows the identity of this person. Will the identity be posted? Will this person be banned from all sites and fill stations? Simply turning this person in for a misdemeanor offense isn't enough. We need to make sure this person never goes into another cave.

We make an example out of them, Publish their name and picture at fill stations, Contact NSS, post his bio on front web page, contact Curt at ADM, I'm sure he can make a cool wanted poster in the mag etc... I have friends in the media also. etc...

Ohhh... yesss...... I have a plan.......

[RN]

We make an example out of them, Publish their name and picture at fill stations, Contact NSS, post his bio on front web page, contact Curt at ADM, I'm sure he can make a cool wanted poster in the mag etc... I have friends in the media also. etc...

Ohhh... yesss...... I have a plan.......

If that's the case, then I'll definitely contribute.

[Cave Ranger]

So answer your question,yes I think it will help,because people seem to become more acutely aware with money involved.

What I'd really like to know, though, is what will happen once someone knows the identity of this person. Will the identity be posted? Will this person be banned from all sites and fill stations? Simply turning this person in for a misdemeanor offense isn't enough. We need to make sure this person never goes into another cave.

We make an example out of them, Publish their name and picture at fill stations, Contact NSS, post his bio on front web page, contact Curt at ADM, I'm sure he can make a cool wanted poster in the mag etc... I have friends in the media also. etc...


Ohhh... yesss...... I have a plan.......

A big Cave Divers "blanket party" would be my preference. Followed by a BBQ and beer bash fund raiser. I'm rigging my soap sock even as we speak

Now that's a plan!!

[aainslie]

Sorry for the double posting, but I don't think that the CDS board gets much trafic and I wanted to make sure this got seen.

I want to make my position on this reward thing abundantly clear to both Ken Hill and the CDS board members so that no misunderstanding occurs in the future.

a) I believe that it is a mistake to offer a reward higher than the penalty for this offence. I also believe that it is naive to think that this is the last incident like this. If you do want to set up a reward fund, the prudent thing to do is to save the majority of it for futre rewards rather than to blow your whole wad on this one event.
b) I believe that many people are of the belief that, now that this reward is in place, we need do no more, and that this complacency is unfortunate.
c) I will NOT donate to a cause I am against. Ken is wrong if he thinks that he can shame me into giving this - I am way too arrogant to give a crap about what anyone thinks. Hence, I am goint to tie up my donation to two further conditions: 1) that the reward NOT be increased to above $1000 for any one occasion, and 2) that the board all sign a letter stating that my contribution will in no way be put towards this fund.

I understand that this means that I am using my offer to buy an outcome. Well, that's the way philanthropy often works. And that's he only basis on which I will do this.

This whole thing has felt a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth. I've received no apologies from Hill, and a not-so-veiled, passive-agressive threat to publicly shame me to get money out of me. Way to go! I'm sure this will hugely increase your future probability of getting money from me... not. I give about $2000-3000 a year to diving related non-profits. CDS is unlikely to be in my future Christmas list for a while after this.

It's beyond moronic to do so. And Sludge, you can change that word to anything you want.

So Ken, you're right - my pledge is indeed on record. So is this.

[Ken Hill]

Andrew,
You have some arrogance! After your redaction and clarification of an offer to donate $5,000.00 to the CDS, the amount was noted with an asterisk and marked in accordance with your clarified offer.

I am not an officer of the CDS ... just someone that posted a recap of financial pledges made by people like you that offered specific financial amounts in the event "DIC" was caught, prosecuted and convicted. In addition to these on-line pledges, many people without any on-line grandiosity gave money to the CDS and neither I nor you have any idea how much money has been pledged via their web site.

So what is it that makes you want to be the central figure in the middle of an effort to catch someone who desecrated our caves? Is it ego or is it your opinion that rewards do not work! I have had emails from many people foreign and domestic aroused by the awareness that the reward has generated. More importantly cave divers are and will be alert to other events, ready willing and able to report the wrongdoer in the event of future deliberate damage.

You have neither PM'd me or posted a clear message, not convoluted with numerous caveats demanding, what a not for profit has to do to comply with you. I also am of the opinion Florida law does not give you the right to tell the CDS how to spend its assets unless you specifically donath the amount to a special use fund. You have already said that you will not donate to the reward fund so what do you propose to call the fund you'll donate to?

Andrew, if you have the wherewithal to donate $5000 that's great! It's my opinion is the CDS has to be responsible to the general membership, who have in great numbers outweighed your thinking and/or apparent generosity. So tell me what you want me to write next to your pledge and I'll do it ... how's that?


/Ken

[aainslie]

How is some stupid asterisk a correction? You do NOT have $6900 in your reward fund. Where have you posted that correction? You have $1900. What are you going to do when someone shows up to claim the $6900 that you have inappropriately committed the CDS to paying?

I have every right to be offended when my intention and generosity are turned against me. I don't want to be the central figure - and furthermore I could equally accuse you of havng the same intent since you chose to post that the reward was now $6900 all over the place. Why did YOU feel it necessary to be at the center? Why are YOU committing the CDS to this when you're not a oard member?

On this:

"You have neither PM'd me or posted a clear message, not convoluted with numerous caveats demanding, what a not for profit has to do to comply with you."

At least my convolutions are gramatically correct.

So let's use some simple sentences here:

You committed me, publically, to paying $5000 towards a reward that I was against.

I asked you to correct it.

You reposted with some strange asterisk, still claiming that $6900 was available for a reward.

For some bizarre reason, you a) can't understand why this pisses me off, and b) won't post a full retraction.

Take my bloody name off your inappropriate statements all over the place. I did not ask you to make those posts - you did that of your own accord without checking with me. It's simple. And you, not I, posted my name all over the place.

On the issue of what I have the legal right to do under Florida law, I can only say, huh? Of course I have the right to make this stipulation. Which in turn the CDS has the right to accept, or refuse.

On the issue of what I wold like you to write against my pledge, I'd say nothing. What gives you the right to write anything against my pledge? You are not an office holder with the CDS. Go away, and stop committing me publically to things that I did not commit to myself.

Continued violation of Rule #3 is grounds for being banned from the CDF.