Cave annual proficiency verification

[Richard Atyeo]

1st year #50.00 for trainer
2nd year $50.00 for trainer $20 for agency
3yr year $70.00 for trainer $20 for agency
4th year $80.00 for trainer $30.for agency
And so on

[rchrds]

1st year #50.00 for trainer
2nd year $50.00 for trainer $20 for agency
3yr year $70.00 for trainer $20 for agency
4th year $80.00 for trainer $30.for agency
And so on

Forrest- under this plan, you're screwed.

[FW]

Forrest- under this plan, you're screwed.

Not me, I can always dive in TAG

[Moonfuzzy]

How many times have you seen a handprint in the mud when there is a rock right beside it that the bonehead could have touched instead? plenty! After all unintentional damage is almost always caused by buoyancy deficiancies.

I think this is the type of damage Gary is trying to deal with - accidental contact. I don't think it is acceptable, and it sounds like you don't either. It seems that this problem has gotten worse since I started diving. For some reason there are people in our caves who don't have the skill it takes to stay off the cave. I don't really know why their skills are not good enough (training, lack of practice, Alzheimer's) but I would like them stopped and I think this may be a good way to call them to account for their skill level.
Any other ideas to stop people from running into the bottom?

And there are cavers who cannot dive as often as they want who will retain their buoyancy skills for eternity.

It is true that some people are excellent divers from the start. There are also plenty out there who have the years of experience and hundreds of dives to become excellent divers. They can be out of the water for months, then jump in with two stages and a couple scooters without batting an eye - and do it flawlessly. However, we do not all have Nicholson Awards.

I don't think diving with an instructor once a year to get an OK is such a hassle for me. I get to dive with someone I normally don't, I get to pick their brain, and maybe this will help some people improve their skills (or just keep them out of the caves)

There are a LOT of caves that wouldn't be patrolled, if you are diving there you don't need a sign-off on your card to get in. My thought is that if you are diving them you are probably dedicated enough to take care and not bottom out in them.

[stickydeco]

. . . DO NOT TREAD ON ME. . . .

Right on.

You know Wingman, under this program, you and I would be screwed anyway as we are supposed to be getting better the more we dive…not worse…haha. Why not an age restriction too? Anyone over 55 will need twice the oversight/review. Plus a Depends check.

Guess I’ll start being concerned about this stupid bonehead idea of Cave Recertification as soon as each State DMV requires the same for licensed drivers…who collectively pose one helluva lot more threat to property and resources than an errant vandal or two. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Give me a break. I just could just see JH being told "sign up and get this done IMMEDIATELY...you are 2 months late." Now, if they were going to go with an annual Nut Doctor Test/Evaluation, I would probably need to sign up….

Jack Boy

[aainslie]

The only one that might cure grafitti is the first one. And since there's some chance these were sneak divers anyway, even that's unlikely.

You know Gary, one way to reduce the number of divers is for YOU to stop diving. How come you feel others should stop diving, but not you?

How will a proficiency test cure grafitti?

It reduces the number of divers with access to the caves especially those who think $50 and 2 hours each year is too much to expect of them to reduce damage to the caves.
It gives interested divers access to an instructor for ways and skills to reduce their impact in the cave or other concerns.
It shows an interest by the cave community in reducing cave damage
It provides a check that a person is reasonably proficient to safely dive the caves without undo accidental damage and a method of bringing themselves to a level that satisfies the instructor before entering the caves
It is a chance to inform vising divers that may not know about the local laws and penalties
It provides a guide to how many divers are actively diving how often and how much pressure the popular caves in an area may be receiving
It will tell divers who to contact and what information to try to have about anyone they see damaging the caves and that we intend to prosecute anyone found damaging the caves
It will provide an official channel from the cave diving community to the police for the collection and reporting of cave crime.
It separates the teaching of cave protection from the basic certification process of safety and basic skill training and emphasizes it's importance (yes it should still be taught in the courses also)
It reduces the need for instructors to make money churning out more students that they may certify to minimal standards and then never see again.
It gives an instructor the chance to see if what they taught in 2 days has been followed up on in the following year.
Creates a financial incentive to instructors to be dedicated protectors of the environment and to have a reputation for teaching cave protection
Creates a financial incentive to divers to maintain proficient skills and to not have a reputation for screwing up the caves
Creates an office dedicated to tracking troubled divers and "deverifying" them and disseminating their names to the publicly monitored caves.

Gee... it looks like I could go on forever. There are probably a bunch more reasons I haven't even thought of yet.

[Gary]

Just so my last post wasn't misunderstood, I was saying that maybe an annual test would be too often, since the FAA only requires them every 2 years. They also have a requirement to fly regularly. They have no "exam" for this, but they have an option to examine your logbook at any time.

Possibly a logbook check may be required at some sites, at some future time, but probably not a re-certification exam.

Anything is possiable. It could be run so that with a certain number of logged dives per year or total the in water check could be reduced to every 2nd 3rd or 5th year. Or all that was ever required for the verification was a logbook check.

It wouldn't matter in the least if you were a few months out of date since you could get your verification next time you came to cave country. You could have an appointment with your instructor soon after you came into town.

Most likely people who needed it would come in and head to an OW site to get their gear together and shake the dust off. Then meet th instructor do the chat and dive log thing and then their verification dive - new pink paper slip for the next year and off they go.

For those who plan their dive vaccations around a new cave course each trip probably wouldn't need a pink slip until they ran out of courses to take.

In my thinking pricing would be a factor of time and paperwork. With a pink piece of paper handed to the diver, one for the instructor's records, and one for the agency. The instructor's time seems to usually run at several hundred dollars a day so if we can run a 1 hour process 4 people at a time price could be as little as $10 or $20 a person and the instructors are still covered.

Mostly the goal though would be to protect the caves so whatever the fee it'd be money up front instructor makes the decision and you get the pink paper or not. If they don't get it either find another inspector or a refresher course or a guide.

Or head to the one cave in the area that isn't landowner monitored and beat the hell out of it - which will pretty much be a testiment to how well the program is protecting the monitored caves.

[Gary]

You know Gary, one way to reduce the number of divers is for YOU to stop diving. How come you feel others should stop diving, but not you?

Probably because when Kathleen and I go diving we don't damage the cave - detectable silt is considered a sin. And we repair other cavers' damage as we go (when feasible) and remove caver debris like line arrows floating in the ceiling pockets, glow sticks, wrist bands, dropped lights, z-knives etc. Then there is always the infinitely small chance we might be able to help in an emergency like a lost diver or air emergency or report someone doing intentional cave damage.

And then the most important thing, of course, is that we love cave diving and we love the caves.

Since I'm not instructor I'll make no money from this and pay my $50 just like everyone else. (even though it adds a barely detectable expense to the hundreds or thousands of dollars I spend cave diving every year already).

[aainslie]

You know Gary, one way to reduce the number of divers is for YOU to stop diving. How come you feel others should stop diving, but not you?

Probably because when Kathleen and I go diving we don't damage the cave - detectable silt is considered a sin. And we repair other cavers' damage as we go (when feasible) and remove caver debris like line arrows floating in the ceiling pockets, glow sticks, wrist bands, dropped lights, z-knives etc. Then there is always the infinitely small chance we might be able to help in an emergency like a lost diver or air emergency or report someone doing intentional cave damage.

And then the most important thing, of course, is that we love cave diving and we love the caves.

Right, and us neophytes don't.

See my next thread.

[Gary]

I think the point being that Kathleen or I not diving might do the caves more harm then good.

Not talking about neophytes just the people whose hand and fin prints litter the caves or just don't seem to care about them.