Cave annual proficiency verification

[Mike Edmonston]

For diving, a simple way to police cave divers is for other divers to report offenses. Cave divers easily police caves against non-cave divers entering caves, this has worked many times at Ginnie. The offenses are reported to Ginnie managers or the park rangers. However, cave diver offenses may be difficult to prove as its one divers word against another. Also, cave diver 'offenses' are less obvious than an open water diver diving past the cavern zone.

Ok, so when I see someone stirring up a ton of silt I tell the ranger. If I am somewhere that there is no ranger do I stick around to get their name and turn them in to their training agency? (I guess they might be apprehensive about this)

So, who is actually going to start doing this? Can we get a show of hands?

I really don't want to get back into the "Intentional vs Unintentional" damage issue.

If I see someone smoking out the cave, I will probably talk to them after the dive and ask them if everything was ok, maybe they are getting used to new gear, and someone's input would benefit the whole situation.

If I come across someone writing their name in the clay, or defacing the cave, well then I'll take down the license number, description of the perp and their gear, READ THE VIS STICKER on their tanks (that usually tells me the shop, then make sure my hole team witnesses the act. Once I get my gear off, I'll call the ranger or the cops, either one will do.

It beats doing nothing.

[defunct]

Ok, so when I see someone stirring up a ton of silt I tell the ranger. If I am somewhere that there is no ranger do I stick around to get their name and turn them in to their training agency? (I guess they might be apprehensive about this)

Seriously? Did you do any cave training?

[Gary]

Ok, so when I see someone stirring up a ton of silt

Seriously? Did you do any cave training?

She did - only none of her instructors got her to silt. It's not that she's never been in a silt out - just that she can go cleanly through just about any place the instructors can take her.

For her full cave course the instructor took her back into a low silty passage in the back of Peacock 3, multi jump across the middle and then out to the passage beyond Henley's Castle. He said he thought he'd had us finally back there but it turned out to just be a catfish, laying in the 2" deep powdery silt and disturbed by our presence that stirred up the mess.

So yeah - she's seen silt but she doesn't make a mess.


You seem to think silting a place out is the only way to get cave trained? She got her's by being good enough not to.

I've done over 200 dives with her she's never layed a fin in the silt and never left a hand print. I do remember the time she dragged a knee a bit going over a hill in a tight passage and once or twice triggered a scooter a bit early.

She's a good example of what a cave diver should be - and could be: cautious and careful, clean and considerate. She's not perfect but in over 250 cave dives she's done about as little damage to the caves as any person could hope to and thus gone more unique places then most will see in as many dives.


Yes, she did cave training and she passed without damaging the cave. I wouldn't expect her to understand why you think that would be impossible or necessary either. Nor do I for that matter.

[defunct]

I do remember the time she dragged a knee a bit going over a hill in a tight passage and once or twice triggered a scooter a bit early.

According to both you and her, these kind of "mistakes" deserve to be reported.

I can't believe that she would continue to dive knowing the possibility of a mistake like the ones above and the damage to the cave system she caused because she chose to dive.

I hope for the cave's sake in the future you both refrain from diving, so as to not allow for any "mistakes" where ANY level of damage can occur.

Thanks for your conservation efforts and leading the way protecting the caves by not diving them. Maybe you can "set the example" in removing the possibility of ANY damage to a cave, intentional or unintentional by giving up your cave card and standing at the spring entrances with a picket sign describing the damage caused by those of us who dive the caves, and even dive in places where both back and front scrape through restrictions...

[Gary]

by those of us who dive the caves, and even dive in places where both back and front scrape through restrictions...

Yes, I heard the excuses of the people who think it's OK to mess up the cave because they dive in tight places. And those who think digging or chopping thru obstructions in the "higher purpose" of finding "going cave". I've heard about people who drag a scooter and multiple stages behind them thru potter's delight.

All of you people who think that it is OK to silt and bang and scrape the cave for whatever "higher purpose" you personally ascribe to.

This is clearly a failure at the instruction level. Instructors that say "Leave nothing but bubbles" but teach that silting and handprints are an unavoidable fact of life. Who say "protect the caves" but teach that a certain amount of damage is sometimes committed just to open new passage.

These are excuses of the unskilled and uncaring. When you are good enough to go thru a passage without messing it up then you have earned the right to be there. If a wall is in your way the answer is not to knock it down or carve a hole in it but to find another way around.

And I LOVE how you guys are so defensive you want us to stop cave diving because we do our best not to screw up the cave. What? Are you so committed to committing cave damage that you want to kick out anyone who tries not too?

You should be embarrassed! Your instructors should be embarrassed! The agencies should be embarrassed.

No wonder the caves are getting damaged.

[Mike Edmonston]

by those of us who dive the caves, and even dive in places where both back and front scrape through restrictions...

Yes, I heard the excuses of the people who think it's OK to mess up the cave because they dive in tight places. And those who think digging or chopping thru obstructions in the "higher purpose" of finding "going cave". I've heard about people who drag a scooter and multiple stages behind them thru potter's delight.

All of you people who think that it is OK to silt and bang and scrape the cave for whatever "higher purpose" you personally ascribe to.

This is clearly a failure at the instruction level. Instructors that say "Leave nothing but bubbles" but teach that silting and handprints are an unavoidable fact of life. Who say "protect the caves" but teach that a certain amount of damage is sometimes committed just to open new passage.

These are excuses of the unskilled and uncaring. When you are good enough to go thru a passage without messing it up then you have earned the right to be there. If a wall is in your way the answer is not to knock it down or carve a hole in it but to find another way around.

And I LOVE how you guys are so defensive you want us to stop cave diving because we do our best not to screw up the cave. What? Are you so committed to committing cave damage that you want to kick out anyone who tries not too?

You should be embarrassed! Your instructors should be embarrassed! The agencies should be embarrassed.

No wonder the caves are getting damaged.

[mgersch]

Other ideas........

I think it is just an attitude, a culture, that maybe as a community we can help to change.

So we have made a start by raising the issue on the message boards.

But what are other things that we could do that might help?
1. Perhaps place more stress on cave conservation in each training class.
2. Perhaps host some cave conservation days
3. Perhaps place a second sign in caves or outside of caves warning of the fragility of sections of the cave.
4. Perhaps set up a fund, say the "sloppy diving fund" or something, that if you accidentally, make a fin print, knee mark, hand print ect... that you SHOULD post and (anonamously or not) and donate $20 to cave conservation. [the premise here is the same as the diving instructor that says you need to by him a 6-pack if you do X].
5. Perhaps post signs and flyers about cave conservation and fill stations and popular cave sites.

Not that any of these ideas are a the solution. They are just a few ideas that I thought up writing this email. But I think that they may help to change a culture. The culture being that Idea that its OK if some damage to the cave occurs. Cave damage will occur if there is diving. However, if can be minimized if divers are reminded that these systems are fragile and that cave conservation IS important.

[Tegg]

Clearly this diver was profiecent...
And even concerned about keeping the cave clean "doing cleanup"
But felt it was OK to "shove the reel in the mud."

I think it is just an attitude, a culture, that maybe as a community we can help to change.

Have you ever dove the passage that you are posting about?

If not, then maybe you should stick to talking about caves/passages that you know rather then pulling excerpts from caves/passages you know nothing about.

The "mud" in that section of cave is literally a "mud" mixture of slightly dense and very dense organic mung which gets shifted in and out of that section of cave in large quantities. Thus shoving the reel in the "mud" did as much damage to the cave as you swimming up the run to dive devils. (If you were familiar with this passage, then you would have known that this is not an example to use for your argument.)

I responded simply because you chose to pull one of my excerpts. I'd appreciate it if you stick to your personally known passages when discussing any "damage" you think you see being done. Thanks.

[mgersch]

Sorry Tegg, You are correct, I never dove there. I have edited my post to remove any reference that may not have been appropriate. My intention was not to say that any particular action was good or bad. I was merely pulling what I thought was an example. I have no desire to debate that issue with you.

I just wanted to try list some positive things that might be done to stress the importance of cave conservation as an attitude instead of the other ideas based on penalties.

[Lanes]

In response to Gary: "remind the divers of the $1000 fine associated with even accidental cave damage"

I hope everyone here has voluntarily paid their fines. I'm willing to bet no one here has voluntarily paid ANY fine for accidental cave damage. I know there is not a single cave diver here who can honestly say they have never accidentally or purposely damaged a cave to some extent. Shall we place underwater cameras in the cave systems to catch these "bandit" cave divers who damage the caves by rubbing their tanks going through the restrictions, running their stomachs through the silt, or causing unseen damage during a total silt-out?