Cave annual proficiency verification

[cavediver256]

I feel that something needs to be done to cut down on the amount of damage occuring in the caves. This is a realistic concern but what can we do to help it?

Gary I agree with you 110% on that statement. It is a very realistic concern, and a concern that should be on all of our minds right now, but the one thing we can never change is the attitude of divers that do not care about the caves.

We, as concerned cave divers, have to pull together as a group, and weed these uncaring divers out. Even if we catch someone damaging the caves intentionally, I am not sure we could do much.

[BobK]

Oh, and BobK, I thought conservative meant dodging the draft, taking daddy's money, buying a presidency (just), then sending poorer Americans to die in a war we can't win.

I though about PMing you to continue this discussion, then I realized this was the Internet. Good luck with your "factual" opinions

[Bob]

I, as a yankee leftist bring with me to cave country on my MANY trips not only excellent cave diving skills, but also the skillset necessary to be a qualified northern diver as well. That means water as cold as 36 degrees, depth, boats and very limited visibility. Maybe you should have to pass my test before you are allowed in the cave at the same time as me. How would you like that? Come on up to Ohio over multiple trips (because you can't very well do the test in one trip!) and we'll get that test done, but you'll have to redo it in two years!

Nice post. What if the shoe were on the other foot, indeed.

This thread is completely ridiculous.

[aquanut...]

I feel that something needs to be done to cut down on the amount of damage occuring in the caves. This is a realistic concern but what can we do to help it?

I agree.

We need to police ourselves. Setup a hotline (NACD or NSSCDS would be the logical choice) you could call and make a complaint about a divers behavior/skills. Then a letter could be sent to them explaining another diver witnessed them (insert offense here) and that was unacceptable behavior. If that person starts to show a trend of bad behavior, then their cert could be reduced or pulled. If they wanted to obtain it again, they would have to go through another class specifically designed to correct the bad behavior.

I think this would affectively raise the bar. Programs like this are already in place; crime stoppers, operation game theft, SC littering hotline, etc.

The overall effectiveness is questionable, but it is a solution that has no affect on the highly skilled. It targets the desired offenders and leaves everybody else unaffected. Posters could be put up at every dive site with the number to call to report cave damage. Getting the number out would be pretty easy.

Only problem I see with this is most people don't like to rat others out. However, I would not hesitate if I saw someone doing damage to the cave.

[Moonfuzzy]

How can we stop the unintentional damages that cave divers are causing all the time?

I wish everyone would stop pointing to the recent vandalism when talking about the conservation issues here on this thread... yes it was bad, but this thread is more about UNINTENTIONAL damage - the fin nicks, hand prints, and scooter gouges in the cave.

Obviously the systems we have in place are not taking care of the issue. What can we change? How?

[Moonfuzzy]

We need to police ourselves. Setup a hotline (NACD or NSSCDS would be the logical choice) you could call and make a complaint about a divers behavior/skills. Then a letter could be sent to them explaining another diver witnessed them (insert offense here) and that was unacceptable behavior. If that person starts to show a trend of bad behavior, then their cert could be reduced or pulled. If they wanted to obtain it again, they would have to go through another class specifically designed to correct the bad behavior.

I don't think this is a realistic solution to in-water activity. How often do you pass a diver in the cave? How often do you see them screwing up? We only observe a min or two of an hour+ dive. I have on occasion seen a CF in the cave, but not often enough to account for all the unintentional damage I see.

[Gary]

How can we stop the unintentional damages that cave divers are causing all the time?

I wish everyone would stop pointing to the recent vandalism when talking about the conservation issues here on this thread... yes it was bad, but this thread is more about UNINTENTIONAL damage - the fin nicks, hand prints, and scooter gouges in the cave.

Thank you for making this point again. This thread IS about the damage all cave divers are doing. Easily avoidable mistakes in wide open passages thru carelessness, laziness and lack of respect, bottles dragged into spaces too small, etc.

DIC is an extreme example of what hundreds of cave divers are doing to a lesser extent. Overall the hundreds are having more total effect then the one lone vandal.

Most of this damage is easily avoided. It'd be easy to teach. All you need is a few pointers. "keep your fins up more going over a hill", "watch your stage bottle - here's a good way to avoid it dragging", "your flutter kick is wrong" or "your fins suck", "don't frog kick in a restriction", "don't scooter thru a restriction and swim farther away before hitting the trigger".

A lot of stuff the mentor process would cover that hardly anyone gets because there are more divers then helpers.

Simple respect for the cave and preventing cave damage being more important then the dive plan also. Pay attention. If you see you are causing damage stop the dive. You should be looking at undoing the damage not finishing the dive.

[Tegg]

I sure hope all of you people bitching about unintentional damage to caves have not dove lately... or else you probably caused A LOT of unintentional damage....

BTW, make sure you don't leave the house either... because think of all the unintentional damage you cause by driving that fossil burning monster polluter you own down the roads to the cave sites... Hope you ride a bike to the cave sites...

Seriously, if the unintentional damage concerns you, then practice what you preach and stop cavediving. Otherwise you are telling us that you are perfect cavedivers and NEVER cause unintentional damage yourself to ANY cave you dive.

[Gary]

Seriously, if the unintentional damage concerns you, then practice what you preach and stop cavediving. Otherwise you are telling us that you are perfect cavedivers and NEVER cause unintentional damage yourself to ANY cave you dive.

"Leave nothing but bubbles, take nothing but pictures, kill nothing but time."

Live it, learn it, dive it.

I didn't see anything in there about leaving hand marks and fin prints. I'm sure they didn't accidentally leave them out of the saying but that you are actually not supposed to do these things.

Sounds like you need to take another look at the way you dive - and your instructor(s) maybe in the way they teach.

[ Oh, Tegg - unless you have never done any damage in any cave system don't even bother to reply. (Hey, you made up the rules.) ]

[Caver95]

I sure hope all of you people bitching about unintentional damage to caves have not dove lately... or else you probably caused A LOT of unintentional damage....

BTW, make sure you don't leave the house either... because think of all the unintentional damage you cause by driving that fossil burning monster polluter you own down the roads to the cave sites... Hope you ride a bike to the cave sites...

Seriously, if the unintentional damage concerns you, then practice what you preach and stop cavediving. Otherwise you are telling us that you are perfect cavedivers and NEVER cause unintentional damage yourself to ANY cave you dive.

Thats what I am saying, I even take pills that make my farts smell like fresh baked cookies.