Public statement from the NSS-CDS

[MengTze]

I don't disagree that the culprits need to be found, that it is despicable.

But bear in mind that in public witch hunts, even the rats are hiding................no one will talk and all you end up is running around with torches, burning the next person to feed the anger.

If I am to be corrected ( i.e a rat does sing like a canary) I will eat humble pie

What I am saying is that sometimes quiet efforts yield better results.

[jtoorish]

I don't disagree that the culprits need to be found, that it is despicable.

But bear in mind that in public witch hunts, even the rats are hiding................no one will talk and all you end up is running around with torches, burning the next person to feed the anger.

If I am to be corrected ( i.e a rat does sing like a canary) I will eat humble pie

What I am saying is that sometimes quiet efforts yield better results.

I agree. Sometimes our first, emotional, reaction winds up leading us in the wrong direction.

While this vandalism is truly despicable and warrants prosecution --the objective should also be to ensure no one else pulls a bonehead move like that.

I'm not naive, but one on one communications might also go along way to discourage this kind of thing in the future.

Jeff

[REastman]

I think this debate has gone on forever in Caving and Cave Diving. Are we glad Caves are open?

I don't know...at the rate we continue to post all this crap on the internet I wouldn't be suprised if cave diving is banned for anything but scientific purposes.

[aainslie]

Johnny,

You're a great cave diver. Bute entirely wrong on this.

It's YOU that is being self indulgent about this. You're just making yourself feel better offering this reward.

It ain't going to do poo poo for the caves.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I would hazard a guess that the point of the reward is to help determine the identity of those who are responsible for the intentional damage which has recently occurred.

The cute responses and attempted legal dissections of the Florida statute serve- what purpose? Self-amusement- an attempt to appear clever and smart- what?

If you aren't really interested in attempting to identify the vandals, then please clutter up some other thread with your silly bs.

Granted, the statute may not have the desired result, but putting a name and a face to the carvings most certainly would.

I have not missed these inane internet discussions and will leave the space for further idiotic commentary.

Thank you Ken, Jim, Richard, John and Angie for taking an interest. The rest of you, please by all means continue your self-important self-indulgence.

Jeez.......

Johnny Richards

[Cindy]

"I don't know...at the rate we continue to post all this crap on the internet I wouldn't be suprised if cave diving is banned for anything but scientific purposes.

They (whoever THEY are) can't really stop us completely from cave diving. It would be impossible. What they can do is close State and Commericial caves and make cave diving illegal. Once cave diving illegal our insurance will not cover us for any injury or illness that happen's "while performing an illegal act". You fall down, break a leg, have a heart attack, have a student or buddy die and you are on your own for bills. That is what will happen to destroy our sport. Frankly we will deserve it if things continue the way they are because we have done a very bad job of taking care of the sport ourselves. We have allowed gread and ego to overtake our common sense. Either we turn this around and become better stewards of our underwater lands, outreach to non-cave divers and straighten out our problems ourselves or we will hand our fate over to others who will do that for us.

[skip]

I think the idea of a reward is to get the rats to rat out the rat. Someone knows who did the crime. That person or persons may not pay attention to this forum, so it is necessary that signs be posted or the reward otherwise advertised and not just within the cave diving community, but also aimed at local scuba clubs and the nondiving public.

Such advertising could, if done properly, serve three useful purposes. Encourage those who know to rat out the culprit (who would then be "re-educated" a la' clockwork orange thereby satisfying the desire to punish and enlightening the person so future such acts are too repugnant to contemplate). Second, the public/scuba clubs would get a lesson in conservation, or at least exposed to the intense desire of cave divers to perserve and protect. Third, various officials and agencies would have solid evidence of the committment of the majority of cave divers to perserving the systems we dive.

A vigorous public compaign needs to be funded as well as a reward offered.

-skip

[Janet]

I can tell you I had a diver here from south Florida here at PSSP one day and he told me he did not pay park admission to a Florida State Park he was visiting in the south, law enforcement wrote him a citation out he had to go to court-the judge sets the fine not LE- and his fine for not paying park admission was $500, damages to a cave system I feel would carry a much higher fine-let's hope so.
Janet

[aainslie]

You know Skip, you have a point. But it assumes the rat is a moron. You'll never get a conviction on this - but the rat may not realize this, and may rat the person out anyway.

Unfortunately, a) you've just let the cat out the bag by pointing this out so now it won't work anymore, and b) most people with a criminal bent know this sort of stuff better than we do.

(Sigh) oh well, back to the drawing board...

Guys, just a point of order. I'm not doing this to be a PITA. I'm doing it because I believe that we need to keep thinking about solutions until we find one. If we complacently stop because we're offering a reward, nothing will be achieved - because I guarantee it will bear no fruit. Let's keep thinking and debating. I do this in a positive, not a negative spirit - it's the scientist in me.

To make my belief concrete - I will donate $5000 to the CDS if that reward works in catching a vandal. And I will be the happiest person in town making that payment. I'm serious - I will stand by this commitment.

I think the idea of a reward is to get the rats to rat out the rat. Someone knows who did the crime. That person or persons may not pay attention to this forum, so it is necessary that signs be posted or the reward otherwise advertised and not just within the cave diving community, but also aimed at local scuba clubs and the nondiving public.

Such advertising could, if done properly, serve three useful purposes. Encourage those who know to rat out the culprit (who would then be "re-educated" a la' clockwork orange thereby satisfying the desire to punish and enlightening the person so future such acts are too repugnant to contemplate). Second, the public/scuba clubs would get a lesson in conservation, or at least exposed to the intense desire of cave divers to perserve and protect. Third, various officials and agencies would have solid evidence of the committment of the majority of cave divers to perserving the systems we dive.

A vigorous public compaign needs to be funded as well as a reward offered.

-skip

[Kelly Jessop]

I want to thank all who have been making donations to the fund,and share the same concern for vandalism and conservation. Also,while I was in N Fl. over the weekend I appreciate the support and comments I received from cave divers and state officials.

[Ken Hill]

The Florida Statute as it applies is not "incredibly dumb" Chapter 810 requires an "intent to commit an offense therein," thereby making routine use, or damage by percolation or unintentional contact with the cave not a criminal act.

The "DIC" incidents were deliberate and intentional and perpetrated in three locations at three separate times. An argument can be made they are three separate violations. I for one will visit the State Attorney and ask that punishment for each case be made individually with penalties issued consecutively.

I made the initial post augmenting the reward amount and others who followed did so for no other reason than to do a service to the cave community. Comments that have detracted from that effort are immature and not worthy of any more comment.

Rewards work! That's why they are not "defunct." /Ken