Message we send

[netmage]

When I read thread titles like,"Memorial missing","Cow defaced", "Peacock defaced" and "Where is the hidden mask" etc what kind of message are we sending to land owners. We want to project the image of good stewards of property and conservation minded,not that these precious caves are a play ground. Unfortunately authorities in government read our forums to make opinions about us,and when we show a juvenile side it makes negotiation for access very difficult. Are we failing as a community in educating cave divers and passing along the long standing mandate that cavers have always followed regarding preservation. In your opinion where are the failings coming from,and what are the solutions.

Kelly,
I've yet to see any post advocating or encouraging three of your four examples. In fact, the online communities overwhelming response is quite vocal, I would hope outsiders recognize that.

-Tim Owens

[Gary]

Unfortunately authorities in government read our forums to make opinions about us,and when we show a juvenile side it makes negotiation for access very difficult. Are we failing as a community in educating cave divers and passing along the long standing mandate that cavers have always followed regarding preservation. In your opinion where are the failings coming from,and what are the solutions.

The message is sent. Caves are getting damaged. Landowners should be looking hard at the cave agencies because they are not doing their job and do not deserve complete access for the people they are representing.

Negotiation for access is one of the problems. When a site is opened it generally open to all. Landowners should be more concerned then allowing "anyone with a cave card" access to caves they wish to protect.

Cave cards are TOO EASY to acquire. Certification agencies are not strict enough and instructors make their money certifying instead of judging. Cave Certifications have become another jacket patch to add to a portfolio of PADI style "specialties" by people who have no interest in cave diving and no respect for the caves.

If I was a landowner I'd require a "cave environmental certification" to access my cave. If I was an agency I'd require annual verification to maintain current certification status. If I was the state I'd require an annual licence fee. If I was an instructor I'd want a student graded on performance in multiple areas including cave protection and certified to the level of their combined score rather then on minimum requirements to pass. I'd have almost every cave on Abe Davis or better requiring 100 dives or more before entering almost any sensitive site (and as a landowner before they entered any site I cared about including any I owned).

Clearly none of this is being done. Prospective cave divers are no longer a self selecting group of devoted cave worshipers. Cave diving has become mainstream and the average person is not protective enough, skilled enough, or cares enough to prevent damaging the caves. And with increased numbers of certified divers the pressure on the caves is getting higher while the quality of the students is getting lower.

It's time to jack up the requirement for entry until it hurts. Until cave instructors can't make a living at it anymore and someone has to look hard and really care to find one and pass the course. And it's time to take a really hard look at the divers and instructors that are out there already.

[JDostal]

Prospective cave divers are no longer a self selecting group of devoted cave worshipers.

Some of us are still gold line, line arrow, double 104, bedding plane obsessed cave worshipers

[Wizard]

Easy cave cards? WHERE??? I busted my rear for mine. I was told the FIRST thing was to remember "If I don't believe that you're good enough to dive safely with one of my family members, you don't pass." While in cave country the last three trips, I've ran across several folks he failed in Full Cave.

I agree it may not be as tough as it was 15 years ago, it's still no OW coarse.

The more traffic, the more damage. How can someone drag in the Bone Tunnel at Ginnie? But there's massive scooter marks in it.

But at no time is there a descent excuse for graffiti or stealing stuff in a cave.

The same people that screw up a clay bank on purpose would carve a heart with "Mother" on the side of a Manatee with a dive knife.

[Kelly Jessop]

When I read thread titles like,"Memorial missing","Cow defaced", "Peacock defaced" and "Where is the hidden mask" etc what kind of message are we sending to land owners. We want to project the image of good stewards of property and conservation minded,not that these precious caves are a play ground. Unfortunately authorities in government read our forums to make opinions about us,and when we show a juvenile side it makes negotiation for access very difficult. Are we failing as a community in educating cave divers and passing along the long standing mandate that cavers have always followed regarding preservation. In your opinion where are the failings coming from,and what are the solutions.

Kelly,
I've yet to see any post advocating or encouraging three of your four examples. In fact, the online communities overwhelming response is quite vocal, I would hope outsiders recognize that.

-Tim Owens

I agree. My main point is it is unfortunate that we have to see this to begin with,and it is good that we as cave divers are outraged by these things.

[rjack]

As an out of towner, I am saddened to hear the these places are being vandalized by hooligans. To date I have done all of my cave diving in MX and I have seen one hand print and a couple of fin prints down there in my travels. I would guess the hand print was intentional but not the fin marks.

Since I have not noticed vandalism to the degree of the recent Cow and Peacock graffiti in MX I think it comes down to dedication. If you have to fly someplace and spend $100s on rental cars and lodging it tends to weed out the riff raff.

Since FL cannot have the planning/flying/lodging logistics increased without dropping off the continental US, it will be up to the agencies to limit access to the dedicated. Dedicated, not just the skilled. The actions of a few bad apples can and do make an impact.

Since the major agencies have only very, very rarely disciplined a diver and/or revoked a certification for "conduct unbecoming a cave diver" I don't have high expectations. But ultimately this comes down to political will. You would think the agencies would have MORE political will than a landowner to cleanup the ranks of cave divers. So I am further saddened to realize that this isn't really the case yet. I hope that widespread graffiti and other cave and land-side access area damage don't become prevelant before the will is found to deny certification for questionable divers and revoke it for rouge ones. And this includes those in the instructor ranks.

Richard

[JE]

Unfortunately authorities in government read our forums to make opinions about us,and when we show a juvenile side it makes negotiation for access very difficult. Are we failing as a community in educating cave divers and passing along the long standing mandate that cavers have always followed regarding preservation. In your opinion where are the failings coming from,and what are the solutions.

The message is sent. Caves are getting damaged. Landowners should be looking hard at the cave agencies because they are not doing their job and do not deserve complete access for the people they are representing.

Negotiation for access is one of the problems. When a site is opened it generally open to all. Landowners should be more concerned then allowing "anyone with a cave card" access to caves they wish to protect.

Cave cards are TOO EASY to acquire. Certification agencies are not strict enough and instructors make their money certifying instead of judging. Cave Certifications have become another jacket patch to add to a portfolio of PADI style "specialties" by people who have no interest in cave diving and no respect for the caves.

If I was a landowner I'd require a "cave environmental certification" to access my cave. If I was an agency I'd require annual verification to maintain current certification status. If I was the state I'd require an annual licence fee. If I was an instructor I'd want a student graded on performance in multiple areas including cave protection and certified to the level of their combined score rather then on minimum requirements to pass. I'd have almost every cave on Abe Davis or better requiring 100 dives or more before entering almost any sensitive site (and as a landowner before they entered any site I cared about including any I owned).

Clearly none of this is being done. Prospective cave divers are no longer a self selecting group of devoted cave worshipers. Cave diving has become mainstream and the average person is not protective enough, skilled enough, or cares enough to prevent damaging the caves. And with increased numbers of certified divers the pressure on the caves is getting higher while the quality of the students is getting lower.

It's time to jack up the requirement for entry until it hurts. Until cave instructors can't make a living at it anymore and someone has to look hard and really care to find one and pass the course. And it's time to take a really hard look at the divers and instructors that are out there already.

Thank you Gary, Moonfuzzy & Kelly-!
Well put.........I couldn't agree more with you guys. I've realized this situation with mass cave certs for awhile now, & when & if I decide to go further with my classes I would definately want an instructor from the 'old school' of thought pertaining to cave training-!

Jack

[aainslie]

Since FL cannot have the planning/flying/lodging logistics increased without dropping off the continental US, it will be up to the agencies to limit access to the dedicated. Dedicated, not just the skilled. The actions of a few bad apples can and do make an impact.

Richard

This is already partially in place.

There are already a bunch of places only available after 100 cave dives, or other control mechanisms. Getting into Telford has become pretty interesting, in that you now have to do a pretty hefty swim to get there. There are very cool parts in well-known, publically accessible caves that aren't talked about much. This is also a good method - don't show these places to people until they've shown enough skill and dedication to warrant letting them know about it. What amazes me is that some of it is simply through silence - one of my favourite passages is at a public site, and is on all the maps available for that site. But by shutting up about it, the "locals" and experienced divers have minimised traffic back there.

These sorts of restrictions help protect a few places. But even that doesn't necessarily work. It's becoming apparent that there's a good chance that Cow was damaged by someone who trespassed to get into the cave in the first place. But they help.

So next time someone won't tell us how to get to a particular place, or we aren't allowed into a site before going through a bunch of hoops, or paying a small fee, or when we get crapped on for telling people about a particularly cool dive (something I have a habit of doing, and am just beginning to cure myself of - right, Mike? ), let's remember why these restrictions are in place. It's so that a few caves continue to be in good shape. Because a few have to go the way of the first 800 feet of Ginnie, or the Peanut tunnel in Peacock - a sacrifice to the training process, highly trafficked and highly damaged, for the good of the other parts of the cave system. And let's not whine when access to yet another cave is reduced until a reasonable level of experience has been achieved.

[Kelly Jessop]

Andrew
You bring up some interesting points that have validity. It made me think that the sites that are guided don't suffer from this problem. It would be a sad day if most caves became guided caves because of a very small few that vandalize caves. There are many dry caves that have gated access due to vandals,but most dry cavers can point to vandalism occuring from non-cavers,but we have to have some form of training to access our submerged caves.

[Cindy]

Andrew
You bring up some interesting points that have validity. It made me think that the sites that are guided don't suffer from this problem. It would be a sad day if most caves became guided caves because of a very small few that vandalize caves. There are many dry caves that have gated access due to vandals,but most dry cavers can point to vandalism occuring from non-cavers,but we have to have some form of training to access our submerged caves.

Kelly, I have been pushing to keep the guided caves on guide systems and add the more delicate ones to a guide/mentor system for 10 years now. I have gotten kicked in the teeth because of it so many times I need braces! I'm not so sure if we need more stingent cave classes but I can think of a few other things we can do..more later. I am off to work. Cindy