Running primary at Little River...or not

[crawford]

At the beginning of the line, there is often light from surface, usually within 100' from the exit and it will be obvious that this is EOL on return.

If the sun is shining (night dive or solar eclipse ), if you (or someone else) didn't silt out the cave, if.....

I know you said often, I'm making a point more for newer divers out there. I think being a father makes you think about every young kid you see.....

[Wizard]

AAHHHHH!!!! I smell a new full-cave skill assessment requirement - The lost exit drill.

I was thinking about the same thing.

Instead of reeling in a primary to exit, you reel out a safety reel.

[BgDadddy]

I do in Little River, don't at Ginnie & Peacock, do at Orange Grove, do at Madison, etc...

[kgault]

I have been noticing the same thing at Jackson Blue. We go in after dark, and find no primary line in place with a few vehicles in the parking lot. We put in a primary line, and end up watching newish looking cave divers swim out of the system.

From overheard conversations on the surface, some groups are doing training (or mentoring) this way, and others are doing repetitive dives (staying at the surface for a short period) to count up for one of the safe cave diving awards.

I guess the rules of accident analysis are not emphasised as much as they use to be.

Keith

[crawford]

I have been noticing the same thing at Jackson Blue. We go in after dark, and find no primary line in place with a few vehicles in the parking lot. We put in a primary line, and end up watching newish looking cave divers swim out of the system.

From overheard conversations on the surface, some groups are doing training (or mentoring) this way, and others are doing repetitive dives (staying at the surface for a short period) to count up for one of the safe cave diving awards.

I guess the rules of accident analysis are not emphasised as much as they use to be.

Keith

That was basically my experience at Little River. I was playing around in the cavern just checking out my gear and making sure everything was cool during my first day in cave country. Two "newish" looking divers passed me just before the chimney. I dorked around a little and when I returned to my tie off it was the only reel tied off to the mainline. One guy was wearing camo pants with a thin wetsuit under them (if I remember correctly). The bottle dropped at 10 feet had a rec console, hoses sprawled in every direction, so they looked "newish". Maybe they were expert cave divers, I don't know.

I left the reel in since I had nothing better to do. When they exited the cavern I returned and pulled my reel, no biggie, I'm just playing around. With the flow that low, if they had blown the vis, and needed to exit under duress, maybe it would have been a problem for inexperienced divers. More than likely not, but whatever.

I think the big point is young divers, if they start cutting corners in one area, will likely start cutting them in others, and where do you draw the line. Yeah, I've entered Little River without a reel when there was strong flow and a spider web of lines. Adding another reel would just make the entrance more dangerous with the flow cranking. I just want those young kids out there to be careful.

I don't even care so much about losing access rights at this point in life, each one of those kids has people in their life that love them, and taking stupid shortcuts is a terrible reason to put you and your family through an unnecessary death.

You young guys be careful and be religous about what you learned in your training. It's often what you don't expect will ever happen that bites you......and then it's too late.

[Gary]

Fortunately for them the line runs to the edge of the light zone.

When I started diving there the line started at the rock at the top of the drop off. I don't know that OW divers are any less likely to dive there than before but I guess I used to worry more about them back before the line was moved up. I used to wait around at deco to make sure all the OW divers got out of the cave alive. That was back when the cave was open 24/7 - I'm a late riser so now days if I get there at all I'm the last one out of the cave anyway pretty much.

[Richard Atyeo]

I was there last saturday and there were already 4 or 5 lines already there and running my line was good practice to keep it out of other lines
but i always run my own line wherever I dive Richard

[FW]

23.7%

AW probably said it best, but here is my observation from nearly 40 years of diving Little River.

If it is bright daylight, with no clouds, and normal or higher flow, and the divers are *very* familiar with the cave, the risk *may* be minimal.

Even a partly cloudy day will move the daylight zone closer to the entrance.

With the flow down, you can't follow the current out (or be blown out).

The most dangerous times are just before the river rises, and just after a flood. I have been in there during each, and I am certain I wouldn't have been able to get out without a line to OW. In fact, after a flood, I run the line from the surface.

When the river starts to rise, tannic river water can come up the run, and into the entrance. This could happen during a long dive, changing the vis while you are in the cave.

After a flood, the vis is low in the entire system. Once I was coming up the chimney, and got blown past where the line levels off toward the entrance. It took us about 10 minutes to find the line again. I was sure glad we had put in a primary on that dive!

[Gary]

I was there last saturday and there were already 4 or 5 lines already there and running my line was good practice to keep it out of other lines but i always run my own line wherever I dive Richard

That's another old memory.

Back when the CDS conventions were held at the Branford high school Little River was a mad house. With a half a dozen or more lines already running in there, a framiliarity with the cave and a virtual certainly that there would be several new lines run in in place of any removed I decided to forgo adding my own line. Probably the first time I didn't run line into the cave but I was (and still am) comfortable with that decision.

Like when the Ginnie Staff runs in a temporary permanant line in the eye I prefer that people use it. It's far more dangerous IMO to have multiple lines running into a tight space then that the one more line a person runs will provide any safety. Just as likely to cause a tangle that gets several lines cut in order to pull the poor diver out.

[Kelly Jessop]

23.7%

AW probably said it best, but here is my observation from nearly 40 years of diving Little River.

If it is bright daylight, with no clouds, and normal or higher flow, and the divers are *very* familiar with the cave, the risk *may* be minimal.

Even a partly cloudy day will move the daylight zone closer to the entrance.

With the flow down, you can't follow the current out (or be blown out).

The most dangerous times are just before the river rises, and just after a flood. I have been in there during each, and I am certain I wouldn't have been able to get out without a line to OW. In fact, after a flood, I run the line from the surface.

When the river starts to rise, tannic river water can come up the run, and into the entrance. This could happen during a long dive, changing the vis while you are in the cave.

After a flood, the vis is low in the entire system. Once I was coming up the chimney, and got blown past where the line levels off toward the entrance. It took us about 10 minutes to find the line again. I was sure glad we had put in a primary on that dive!

Good points Forrest.
I have experienced a collapse in a high flow system,and viz was inches at best,and not clearing quicky. I am glad I had that reel.