Accident at Mx

[D]

Enough time has passed now for people to be able to discuss the deaths of two divers staying at Villas De Rosa, in a way that puts accident analysis as the only way to improve the situation down here in Mexico.

From first hand, from all the poeple I have talked with down here, the instructors and the explorers, and full time cave guides and full on divers, they are a little annoyed, but feel restricted to voice anything just yet in respect to the divers who died.

The local divers are annoyed, because the thought of 9 people in Kalimba, is, to be fair, an accident waiting to happen. It is a gorgeous cave, and incredibly decorated, but also small (there are many restrictions). Just on the issue of cave conservation, 9 would be considered too much. About 6 too much, and 5 too much if they are to split up into two teams.

Regardless of experience and skill level, it was too much, and to be honest, it would be experience that would tell you that, and a passion for conservation that would prevent you carrying out that dive plan.

The divers dived a considerable way on their return in cave that they didn't dive in on the way in. One persons definition of experience is different to anothers.

I don't want to critisise anyone, and we all have bad days, but it has come time to discuss who should be the guides in this area. I have never understood how people who do not live here, work here, dive in Mexico's cave structures everyday (yes, everyday), manage to be cave guides.

I have dived alot in other cave systems in other countries, but because I do not live there, I would never consider guiding a dive I had organised there, I would get a local, who lives it, and knows the pitfalls to take me. Someone I trust, and know will be safety and conservation driven. And, yes, I'd pay him, and what their worth too. This is surely a part of accident annalysis. Lack of familiarity with the cave surroundings, lack of familiarity to plan the dive well. Too many on a "trust me" dive. Even if the guide wishes to claim that they were experienced in that cave system, then that is worse. Either way you look at it, it is bad. Two guys got lost. Two "experienced divers" got lost

A local guide, who lives in caves, would not have taken so many in and would have probably chosen a more suitable dive for the team. More knowledge of where to go would have helped. Also, as an outsider who lives not in Mexico, the guide would not be familiar with the local administrative situation. Diving in these caves is legal, but only just, and taking larger groups (for whatever reason) is jeapardising access to these caves for the people who live here, and future generations of tourists. This is important for cave guiding, and so people should not choose delicate dive sites for large groups.

I have recently seen 8 people in Minatauro. Come on guys, wake up. This is dumb.

I urge everyone who goes diving here from the USA to make sure a local guide is with you, who knows the caves, and has been in them everyday for at least year. Familiarity is essential. I really don't understand that people work in one country and guide in another. Sure, some can, but they are very much the few, and those who claim to be that person should be looked at with caution.

I know people will disagree with me on this, but the facts are that 9 went in to Kalimba to dive, and two died. Nobody was, to my knowledge, living in mexico, with an FM3. I have heard the words "greed", and "totally incompetant" mentioned from people who are normally calm, but that is a little harsh. I think thoughtless and selfish is better. Please don't ruin things for others, and let common sense run your business.

[Gary]

What purpose are the guides? Whatever the purpose they are obviously being wrongly used on this dive.

Guides IMO would make sense to protect a delicate cave system from misuse - not as a tool of exploration.

Paying a guide to take divers into a system on a complex dive they could not plan or execute on their own experience is little more then a "trust me" dive - shortcutting experience in the system for loss of safety and money.

When most people travel to Mexico to see the caves there this trade off is exactly what they have in mind - they have a limited amount of time to see as much cave as they can.

Are the guides protecting the systems or just collecting a fee for access? Are they promoting safe dive plans and providing an extra level of safety or just the opposite?

I'm actually considering diving in Mexico as soon as next month and spending a considerable time there. So this is more then just a vent but actually a question into what is going on and why.

[Dave]

Who was the guide?

[Aktun]

The newspaper saids Kent Hirsch was the guide.

David

[resolute]

The way I see a guide in cavediving is someone who can handle the setup and logistics and familiarize one with a system, but not someone who you follow blindly anywhere that you can't get yourself out of on your own.

They can give you a pre-dive briefing take you see the prettiest caves, etc., but you cannot count on them and them alone to insure your safety, just like you can't count on any one buddy to do for you... All members in a team share responsibility for their own safety as well as that of their teammates on any given dive. Using a guide does not give you the luxury of not being aware of your surroundings or following the same cave diving rules that you would follow on your own. If you are not comfortable doing something without a guide, you shouldn't be doing it with a guide..

Most reputable guides provide a good service in Mexico and definetly add value to a trip down there, but I see most of what you should count on them for as being out of the water - getting you to and from, helping plan the day, procuring needed tanks or equipment, and making the dive run more "efficiently" (ie - finding the main line tie ins, etc.). But, In the water they are just another (hopefully good) dive buddy that has been there before, but you better always understand where they are taking you and what they are doing - if not verify or call the dive if necessary - dosen't matter if you ARE in a place where you have a limited amount of time to see stuff - you can always go back later - next trip, next year whatever - the cave will still be there

JB

[JoeyP]

Lets look at the training. The fatal dive is less complex then doing the Hill 400 to the bats and jumping to the Roller Coaster in Ginnie and yet 4 Full Cave Certified divers were unable to execute it safely. Why did this happen?

Joe Citelli

[JohnTodd]

Lets look at the training. The fatal dive is less complex then doing the Hill 400 to the bats and jumping to the Roller Coaster in Ginnie and yet 4 Full Cave Certified divers were unable to execute it safely. Why did this happen?

Joe Citelli

Can you explain the dive plan? I've read the explanations on this list and others, have dove there, and can't clearly follow it. Agree with looking at training, but I think another factor was a convoluted dive plan, with too many teams in a small system.

John Todd

[JoeyP]

Can you explain the dive plan? I've read the explanations on this list and others, have dove there, and can't clearly follow it. Agree with looking at training, but I think another factor was a convoluted dive plan, with too many teams in a small system.

My impression is that there was no plan beyond follow the leader and therefore beyond any lucid explanation. I have many dives there and can't clearly follow what they report either but knowing the system I suspect they turned left towards Grand Cenote upon exiting the Bos Chen line instead of going right and back to the jump to the Calimba line. This line ends after about 1500 feet at a huge jump before the line which leads to the exit which is only 2-300 feet away.

[Genesis]

Sounds like the root problem was finding yourself on the wrong line to start with, and not recognizing that had occurred before your option to turn around and go back whence you came has expired.

"Follow the leader" may be all nice and well, but you still have to look at your SPG and if you see that you've reached thirds, you need to know you can exit on what you have left - and which way to go.

I've read the description of the dive plan and what happened several times, and I'm still not sure I follow it. That's probably a bad sign too.....

[resolute]

I have many dives there and can't clearly follow what they report either but knowing the system I suspect they turned left towards Grand Cenote upon exiting the Bos Chen line instead of going right and back to the jump to the Calimba line. This line ends after about 1500 feet at a huge jump before the line which leads to the exit which is only 2-300 feet away.

I dove this system recently on 2 different trips (one in Sept of this year and one last month) - and the lines had been rearranged in between the two trips right around the point where the Bos Chen jump is off the Grand Cenote line.. (one trip I came in through Calimba, the other through Grand Cenote) IIRC, at the Bos Chen jump there were (as of last month at least) marker arrows pointing both ways and the line almost makes a 90 degree turn.. It took our team a few extra mins. to figure out what was going on here (and ultimately find the Bos Chen jump), because of this rearrangement. But I am having trouble remember what you are referring to as the "huge jump" - I was thinking that the line was continuous from the Bos Chen jump all the way out Grand Centote.. Can anyone else add knowledge/perspective?

JB